Advice, please!

drobe999 · 06-16-2009, 07:35 PM

I'm trying to come up with a reasonable offer on this gun... belonged to the father of a friend, who brought it back from WWII. The owner died about 10 years ago, and his son wants me to help him sell the old Luger. I'd really like to buy it, but the more I dig into it, the more I'm starting to realize it may be a little out of my price range. It appears to be in great condition; wear doesn't seem too bad considering the age of the thing. Can't find a date stamp where I've seen it pictured on other examples so I'm wondering if it's one of the older ones. Got some pretty good pictures of the proof marks and serial number. All the numbered parts seem to match except for the magazines (one has a wooden end, the other looks like aluminum). I took the grips off, but did not see any numbers stamped on the inside of them.
I am curious as to what the "120.R.M.G.3" stamped on the front grip strap means.
Any help you guys here can provide will be greatly appreciated!

wayne8661 · 06-16-2009, 07:58 PM

Does the magazine match the pistol?

SteveM · 06-16-2009, 08:06 PM

120th Reserve Infantry Regiment,Machine Gun Company, Weapon Number 3. The pistol is probably a 1908 1st issue. Is there a letter on the frame with the serial number? If not, this is the 140th of this model made.

The mags pictured would not be correct for this luger.

Any markings on the holster?

alvin · 06-16-2009, 08:08 PM

I will give it a try, but I don't know this thing well. So if I am wrong, don't blame me.

1908 first issue
Regiment 120, Machine Gun Company weapon #3

George Anderson · 06-16-2009, 08:20 PM

The pistol is what collectors call a P08 first military. It was made either very late in 1908 or 1909 depending upon the full serial number. That number would appear on the front of the frame beneath the barrel. If the number includes a letter suffix it is 1909. The unit mark indicates that it was delivered to Infantry Regiment 120 and in turn to the machine gun company of that Regiment. The weapon number is 3. It was probably issued to one of the NCOs of the machine gun company. It seems to be a good original example and as such has a better than average value. A photo of the number on the front of the frame would be helpful.

drobe999 · 06-16-2009, 10:02 PM

I just took a photo of the frame number - the 140 matches the number on the barrel and all other parts are stamped with a 40. The only mismatch is the magazines - the one with a wood end has 1875 d stamped on it; the other magazine looks relatively new and has no numbers at all. The guy that owned the gun used the newer, unmarked magazine when he fired the gun; the older one was in the sleeve in the holster. The holster itself is interesting in that someone wrote their name inside the top of it. I'll try to attach the extra pictures with this reply...

drobe999 · 06-16-2009, 10:38 PM

I was also wondering about the safety mechanism on this particular model - I've read some things about "unrelieved" sear and was wondering if this is one of those. Also got a better photo of the barrel and frame serial numbers. I've never fired the gun, so I don't know if it has the hold-open function when the magazine is empty or not.
I'll have to find my jewelers loupe tomorrow and check the holster over closer. There are some markings on the back side of it, but they are close to being worn off, and very hard to see...
One thing that is missing from the holster is the takedown tool. Looks like it was there for a very long time, but it's not in the pocket now...

wayne8661 · 06-16-2009, 10:40 PM

Can we get some pics of the right side of the pistol? This will tell us if a hold open wass added?

tenbears · 06-16-2009, 10:41 PM

Steve if the unit marks were for Reserve the R should be cursive. Very nice 1908 here with a low serial number.

drobe999 · 06-16-2009, 11:02 PM

I've got a pile of pictures of this gun - just didn't want to overload you guys if it wasn't necessary. I'm attaching a few full view shots of the sides of the gun. Hope it helps.
I have to admit, of all the obsessions I've gone through in my adult life, trying to figure out how to buy this gun is turning out to be pretty damn strong. I've got motorcycles, cars, toys and a safe full of other guns, but something about this one seems special...

rolandtg · 06-16-2009, 11:23 PM

If you can afford to pay a reasonable price for this pistol you should buy it and keep it just the way it is.
It will only appreciate in value over time. Guaranteed!

Also, the pistol should ideally be stored with the magazines empty to avoid unnecessary stress on the springs.

drobe999 · 06-16-2009, 11:45 PM

Like I said at the start of this thread, this gun isn't mine (yet). My buddy let me take it home so I could get some good pictures of it and try to figure out what it's worth. His original plan was to take it to a gun show and get rid of it... I convinced him to hold off until I can find out what it should go for, and if I can afford it, I'll make him an offer for it. I've put myself in kind of an odd position - I want him to get as much as he can for it, but I really hope I can afford to buy it when all is said and done...

alanint · 06-17-2009, 02:22 AM

The sear appears unrelieved and there does not appear to be a hold open device. Can you take a close up photo of the right side of the gun in the area just above and slightly behind the trigger? Is there a small pin in the white located in this area with a small arsenal symbol next to it, as if approving the addition of this pin?

George Anderson · 06-17-2009, 07:55 AM

It is probably lacking a hold-open as the 120th was from Wurtemberg and, like the Bavarians, Wurtemberg doesn't seem to have gotten their P08's refitted.

drobe999 · 06-17-2009, 10:04 AM

Hope I'm not boring you guys... I shot a few more pics this morning. This thing fascinates me!
I don't see any pin or mark to indicate that it has a hold-open modification.
Took the best pic I could get of the mark on back side of holster. Appears to be an Eagle on a ball with "WaA100" stamped under it. In the holster photo, is the small strap there to help get the gun out of the holster? Also, in the photo of the serial number on the barrel, there appears to be a bullet shaped mark directly above the 4. Another proof mark, or what?

wlyon · 06-17-2009, 10:30 AM

Your holster was manufactured by Curt Vogel KG, Cottbusser Lederwarenwerk. The eagle WaA 100 ( known as a waffenamt ) the 100 is an inspectors number. Bill

Ron Wood · 06-17-2009, 10:45 AM

Don,
That is a really nice early First Issue Military. The bullet shaped mark on the barrel is a shield with a diagonal bar running from upper left to lower right. It is a DWM barrel inspector's mark and until this time I have not seen it on anything other than Model 1900 and 1906 Lugers.

John Sabato · 06-17-2009, 10:54 AM

Welcome to the lugerforum.

Since no one has ventured a guess as yet... IMHO this pistol would sell for at least $2000 and probably more if it were in the hands of an established collector... probably a lot more.

If you can get it for less than that, more power to you... and DON'T shoot it... it is far too valuable as a collector to chance breaking a part. Consider the purchase of this gun part of your retirement fund.

zinfull · 06-17-2009, 01:58 PM

I am wondering about the proof marks. What are the dates that they started and stopped putting them on the left side?

Jerry

George Anderson · 06-17-2009, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zinfull

I am wondering about the proof marks. What are the dates that they started and stopped putting them on the left side?

Jerry

Left receiver proof placement only appears on the first military model that was produced in 1908 and 1909. With 1910 production the proofs appear on the right side of the receiver.

06-16-2009, 07:35 PM	#1
drobe999 User Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 6 Thanks: 6 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Advice, please! I'm trying to come up with a reasonable offer on this gun... belonged to the father of a friend, who brought it back from WWII. The owner died about 10 years ago, and his son wants me to help him sell the old Luger. I'd really like to buy it, but the more I dig into it, the more I'm starting to realize it may be a little out of my price range. It appears to be in great condition; wear doesn't seem too bad considering the age of the thing. Can't find a date stamp where I've seen it pictured on other examples so I'm wondering if it's one of the older ones. Got some pretty good pictures of the proof marks and serial number. All the numbered parts seem to match except for the magazines (one has a wooden end, the other looks like aluminum). I took the grips off, but did not see any numbers stamped on the inside of them. I am curious as to what the "120.R.M.G.3" stamped on the front grip strap means. Any help you guys here can provide will be greatly appreciated! Attached Thumbnails Attached Images

06-16-2009, 10:02 PM	#6
drobe999 User Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 6 Thanks: 6 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I just took a photo of the frame number - the 140 matches the number on the barrel and all other parts are stamped with a 40. The only mismatch is the magazines - the one with a wood end has 1875 d stamped on it; the other magazine looks relatively new and has no numbers at all. The guy that owned the gun used the newer, unmarked magazine when he fired the gun; the older one was in the sleeve in the holster. The holster itself is interesting in that someone wrote their name inside the top of it. I'll try to attach the extra pictures with this reply... Attached Thumbnails

06-16-2009, 10:38 PM	#7
drobe999 User Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 6 Thanks: 6 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I was also wondering about the safety mechanism on this particular model - I've read some things about "unrelieved" sear and was wondering if this is one of those. Also got a better photo of the barrel and frame serial numbers. I've never fired the gun, so I don't know if it has the hold-open function when the magazine is empty or not. I'll have to find my jewelers loupe tomorrow and check the holster over closer. There are some markings on the back side of it, but they are close to being worn off, and very hard to see... One thing that is missing from the holster is the takedown tool. Looks like it was there for a very long time, but it's not in the pocket now... Attached Thumbnails

06-16-2009, 11:02 PM	#10
drobe999 User Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 6 Thanks: 6 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I've got a pile of pictures of this gun - just didn't want to overload you guys if it wasn't necessary. I'm attaching a few full view shots of the sides of the gun. Hope it helps. I have to admit, of all the obsessions I've gone through in my adult life, trying to figure out how to buy this gun is turning out to be pretty damn strong. I've got motorcycles, cars, toys and a safe full of other guns, but something about this one seems special... Attached Thumbnails

06-16-2009, 11:23 PM	#11
rolandtg User Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Texas Hill Country Posts: 471 Thanks: 361 Thanked 255 Times in 111 Posts	If you can afford to pay a reasonable price for this pistol you should buy it and keep it just the way it is. It will only appreciate in value over time. Guaranteed! Also, the pistol should ideally be stored with the magazines empty to avoid unnecessary stress on the springs. Last edited by rolandtg; 06-17-2009 at 07:14 PM.

06-16-2009, 07:58 PM	#2
wayne8661 User Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Kennett Square Pennsylvania Posts: 591 Thanks: 15 Thanked 334 Times in 104 Posts	Does the magazine match the pistol?

06-16-2009, 08:06 PM	#3
SteveM User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 1,016 Thanks: 94 Thanked 275 Times in 137 Posts	120th Reserve Infantry Regiment,Machine Gun Company, Weapon Number 3. The pistol is probably a 1908 1st issue. Is there a letter on the frame with the serial number? If not, this is the 140th of this model made. The mags pictured would not be correct for this luger. Any markings on the holster?

06-16-2009, 08:08 PM	#4
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	I will give it a try, but I don't know this thing well. So if I am wrong, don't blame me. 1908 first issue Regiment 120, Machine Gun Company weapon #3

06-16-2009, 08:20 PM	#5
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,772 Thanked 2,527 Times in 786 Posts	The pistol is what collectors call a P08 first military. It was made either very late in 1908 or 1909 depending upon the full serial number. That number would appear on the front of the frame beneath the barrel. If the number includes a letter suffix it is 1909. The unit mark indicates that it was delivered to Infantry Regiment 120 and in turn to the machine gun company of that Regiment. The weapon number is 3. It was probably issued to one of the NCOs of the machine gun company. It seems to be a good original example and as such has a better than average value. A photo of the number on the front of the frame would be helpful.

06-16-2009, 10:40 PM	#8
wayne8661 User Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Kennett Square Pennsylvania Posts: 591 Thanks: 15 Thanked 334 Times in 104 Posts	Can we get some pics of the right side of the pistol? This will tell us if a hold open wass added?

06-16-2009, 10:41 PM	#9
tenbears User Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 370 Thanks: 3 Thanked 26 Times in 15 Posts	Steve if the unit marks were for Reserve the R should be cursive. Very nice 1908 here with a low serial number.

06-16-2009, 11:45 PM	#12
drobe999 User Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 6 Thanks: 6 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Like I said at the start of this thread, this gun isn't mine (yet). My buddy let me take it home so I could get some good pictures of it and try to figure out what it's worth. His original plan was to take it to a gun show and get rid of it... I convinced him to hold off until I can find out what it should go for, and if I can afford it, I'll make him an offer for it. I've put myself in kind of an odd position - I want him to get as much as he can for it, but I really hope I can afford to buy it when all is said and done...

06-17-2009, 02:22 AM	#13
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	The sear appears unrelieved and there does not appear to be a hold open device. Can you take a close up photo of the right side of the gun in the area just above and slightly behind the trigger? Is there a small pin in the white located in this area with a small arsenal symbol next to it, as if approving the addition of this pin?

06-17-2009, 07:55 AM	#14
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,772 Thanked 2,527 Times in 786 Posts	It is probably lacking a hold-open as the 120th was from Wurtemberg and, like the Bavarians, Wurtemberg doesn't seem to have gotten their P08's refitted.

06-17-2009, 10:04 AM	#15
drobe999 User Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 6 Thanks: 6 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hope I'm not boring you guys... I shot a few more pics this morning. This thing fascinates me! I don't see any pin or mark to indicate that it has a hold-open modification. Took the best pic I could get of the mark on back side of holster. Appears to be an Eagle on a ball with "WaA100" stamped under it. In the holster photo, is the small strap there to help get the gun out of the holster? Also, in the photo of the serial number on the barrel, there appears to be a bullet shaped mark directly above the 4. Another proof mark, or what? Attached Thumbnails

06-17-2009, 10:30 AM	#16
wlyon Lifer 2X Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: May 2005 Location: Somewhere in Montana Posts: 2,615 Thanks: 3,140 Thanked 2,523 Times in 940 Posts	Your holster was manufactured by Curt Vogel KG, Cottbusser Lederwarenwerk. The eagle WaA 100 ( known as a waffenamt ) the 100 is an inspectors number. Bill __________________ Bill Lyon

06-17-2009, 10:45 AM	#17
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,987 Thanks: 1,067 Thanked 5,090 Times in 1,675 Posts	Don, That is a really nice early First Issue Military. The bullet shaped mark on the barrel is a shield with a diagonal bar running from upper left to lower right. It is a DWM barrel inspector's mark and until this time I have not seen it on anything other than Model 1900 and 1906 Lugers. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

06-17-2009, 10:54 AM	#18
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Welcome to the lugerforum. Since no one has ventured a guess as yet... IMHO this pistol would sell for at least $2000 and probably more if it were in the hands of an established collector... probably a lot more. If you can get it for less than that, more power to you... and DON'T shoot it... it is far too valuable as a collector to chance breaking a part. Consider the purchase of this gun part of your retirement fund. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

06-17-2009, 01:58 PM	#19
zinfull Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sonoma County CA Posts: 240 Thanks: 4 Thanked 32 Times in 15 Posts	I am wondering about the proof marks. What are the dates that they started and stopped putting them on the left side? Jerry