1918 P08 Erfurt, not sure what exactly it is, Revision-commission marked maybe?

Thorgrimm_the_Vain · 03-20-2011, 03:27 PM

Howdy, just got a hold of a 1918 Erfurt luger, matching numbers except for grips and magazine. There is no numbers on the barrel. I have been told it has a RC mark, but am not sure which parts would be marked or if the whole gun would be a revcom. Are these the standard Fraktur markings? It is marked germany on the frame but it doesn't look like it was done post bluing... Any bits of info would be greatly appreciated, sorry for the ****te tonne of questions.

I have a DWM re-arsenal import gun that I will take some photos of too, import mark is 666......

Ron Smith · 03-20-2011, 03:50 PM

Hi Eric,

I don't see any RC markings in your photos. Erfurts have nearly every part stamped with a crown over a letter acceptance / inspector's mark.

However, it's not uncommon to find more than one crown RC on Erfurt Lugers. The "GERMANY" stamp merely indicates that it was exported post war and was applied at that time.

Welcome to the forum.

Ron

Norme · 03-20-2011, 03:58 PM

Hi Ron, There is one C/RC stamp in the sixth photo (rt. side receiver). Best regards, Norm

Thorgrimm_the_Vain · 03-20-2011, 03:59 PM

Thank you, so this is a standard first war luger? What do they run value wise? Is 30 luger less in value than 9mm?

Ron Smith · 03-20-2011, 04:56 PM

Norm,

You are correct, I see it now, above the proofs.

Eric,

"Is 30 luger less in value than 9mm?"

Is it in 9mm or .30 Luger? If .30 Luger, it has been re-barreled and the value greatly deminished. All Imperial Military Lugers were 9mm. The "Germany" export stamp will also devalue it some.

There aren't sufficient photos to evaluate it. If it's in average (75%) to better (85-90%) "original" condition it's in the $1000-$1200 range. If it's been re-barreled to .30 Luger, value would be $600-$800 as a "shooter" grade Luger. Bear in mind that the market isn't the greatest right now due to the economy, and these values are a give or take best guess.

Ron

Edward Tinker · 03-21-2011, 02:04 AM

it would help to know what country you live in? Your tone of writing indicates, UK, possibly Canada?

So, asking value is very hard, plus more pictures are needed.

Ed

Thorgrimm_the_Vain · 03-21-2011, 06:16 PM

Thanks very much, I am located in the USA. I want to sell it and try to get a correct first war model. What is the best venue? Gunbroker? Here? And what other parts should I take photos of?

THanks again for all your help.

Ron Smith · 03-21-2011, 06:22 PM

Here's are links to photo views that are very helpful. The best photos are taken outside on a lightly overcast day. Flash distorts the color and finish appearance , as does bright sun.

http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthread.php?t=25666

http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthread.php?t=25416

Good clear photos of the front and rear grip straps showing the degree of finish wear help in a sale also.

Ron

George Anderson · 03-21-2011, 07:38 PM

Did I miss something? Has no one commented on the lack of a maker's Logo on the toggle?

DavidJayUden · 03-21-2011, 07:45 PM

George:
We were all waiting to see if you were paying attention...
dju

Ron Wood · 03-21-2011, 08:15 PM

Glad you brought that up George, as I was wondering the same thing and also in awe of the plethora of inspector's marks on the underside of the receiver...particularly on the rails. There is more to this gun than first meets the eye.

Ron Smith · 03-21-2011, 08:22 PM

Sometimes you can't see the forest for the trees. I'll be jiggered...it's a blank toggle!

I need to take a nap...

I recently read that the Erfurt Gov't arsenal was re-named "RwE" Reichswerke Erfurt after the war, and produced Mauser Sporting rifles for commercial sales until they were shut down by the Allied Control Commission. I wonder if they managed to kick out a few Lugers too.

Thorgrimm_the_Vain · 03-23-2011, 04:20 PM

Now you are just confusing me even more, whats the significance or insignificance of a blank toggle?

more pics

Ron Wood · 03-23-2011, 04:23 PM

It shouldn't have a blank toggle...that is highly unusual. And it doesn't appear that any markings have been removed.

champ7fc · 03-23-2011, 07:04 PM

It may be the angles or the lighting but to me it looks like the toggle has been ground down in the area where the inscription would normally be , Erfurt or DWM. The stampings on the toggle may have been done after the toggle was ground. It looks like a slight dish effect in that area of the toggle. Just my two cents worth. Craig

DavidJayUden · 03-23-2011, 08:56 PM

It woul.d be interesting to lay a straight edge from front to rear of the suspect item. I agree that some photos seem to show a different reflective shine in that area possibly suggesting a different surface angle. How about a boatload of good photos of the front toggle link on the top and from the sides?
dju

George Anderson · 03-24-2011, 08:02 AM

Perhaps it was being prepared for the application of a Crown/SPANDAU.

John Sabato · 03-24-2011, 12:07 PM

Very Funny George! I disagree on the mark on the toggle being blank. The discoloration of the blueing appears to me in the closeup photo that the marking (likely DWM) was ground off just deep enough to remove the marking and then blended into the ends so that the front and rear markings are intact...in a manner that leaves the toggle link slight dished from front to rear...

Could the original poster please check to see if the area where the marking would go is perfectly flat, or dished as I have described?

Thanks.

Ron Smith · 03-24-2011, 12:52 PM

It looks like it was scrubbed and then re-stamped.

John Sabato · 03-24-2011, 02:15 PM

I am quite knowledgeable in things related to metalworking and manufacturing. I cannot see how this "scrubbing" could be accomplished and at the same time restore the top surface of the toggle to it's original shape without signficant labor and cost. If the objective here was to produce a Faux Krieghoff, I might be able to accept the level of effort, but in this case, this pistol is not in that class of collectibles that would justify it IMHO. I am puzzled why anyone would do such a thing to a gun in this condition.

Removing and replacing enough metal so that there is little or no trace of the manufacturer's stamp would require some fairly sophisticated welding, and refinishing, and certainly would require the toggle to be heat-treated to the proper hardness to withstand the impulse of the toggle train during the firing cycle... it just doesn't make sense to me...

Anyone got a serious WAG for theory?

03-20-2011, 03:27 PM	#1
Thorgrimm_the_Vain User Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 5 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	1918 P08 Erfurt, not sure what exactly it is, Revision-commission marked maybe? Howdy, just got a hold of a 1918 Erfurt luger, matching numbers except for grips and magazine. There is no numbers on the barrel. I have been told it has a RC mark, but am not sure which parts would be marked or if the whole gun would be a revcom. Are these the standard Fraktur markings? It is marked germany on the frame but it doesn't look like it was done post bluing... Any bits of info would be greatly appreciated, sorry for the ****te tonne of questions. I have a DWM re-arsenal import gun that I will take some photos of too, import mark is 666......

03-20-2011, 03:50 PM	#2
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	Hi Eric, I don't see any RC markings in your photos. Erfurts have nearly every part stamped with a crown over a letter acceptance / inspector's mark. However, it's not uncommon to find more than one crown RC on Erfurt Lugers. The "GERMANY" stamp merely indicates that it was exported post war and was applied at that time. Welcome to the forum. Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

03-20-2011, 04:56 PM	#5
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	Norm, You are correct, I see it now, above the proofs. Eric, "Is 30 luger less in value than 9mm?" Is it in 9mm or .30 Luger? If .30 Luger, it has been re-barreled and the value greatly deminished. All Imperial Military Lugers were 9mm. The "Germany" export stamp will also devalue it some. There aren't sufficient photos to evaluate it. If it's in average (75%) to better (85-90%) "original" condition it's in the $1000-$1200 range. If it's been re-barreled to .30 Luger, value would be $600-$800 as a "shooter" grade Luger. Bear in mind that the market isn't the greatest right now due to the economy, and these values are a give or take best guess. Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

03-21-2011, 02:04 AM	#6
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,916 Thanks: 1,992 Thanked 4,507 Times in 2,081 Posts	it would help to know what country you live in? Your tone of writing indicates, UK, possibly Canada? So, asking value is very hard, plus more pictures are needed. Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

03-21-2011, 06:22 PM	#8
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	Here's are links to photo views that are very helpful. The best photos are taken outside on a lightly overcast day. Flash distorts the color and finish appearance , as does bright sun. http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthread.php?t=25666 http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthread.php?t=25416 Good clear photos of the front and rear grip straps showing the degree of finish wear help in a sale also. Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

03-20-2011, 03:58 PM	#3
Norme Always A Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,415 Thanks: 225 Thanked 2,594 Times in 931 Posts	Hi Ron, There is one C/RC stamp in the sixth photo (rt. side receiver). Best regards, Norm

03-20-2011, 03:59 PM	#4
Thorgrimm_the_Vain User Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 5 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thank you, so this is a standard first war luger? What do they run value wise? Is 30 luger less in value than 9mm?

03-21-2011, 06:16 PM	#7
Thorgrimm_the_Vain User Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 5 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks very much, I am located in the USA. I want to sell it and try to get a correct first war model. What is the best venue? Gunbroker? Here? And what other parts should I take photos of? THanks again for all your help.

03-21-2011, 07:38 PM	#9
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,773 Thanked 2,527 Times in 786 Posts	Did I miss something? Has no one commented on the lack of a maker's Logo on the toggle?

03-21-2011, 07:45 PM	#10
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	George: We were all waiting to see if you were paying attention... dju

03-21-2011, 08:15 PM	#11
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,989 Thanks: 1,067 Thanked 5,099 Times in 1,676 Posts	Glad you brought that up George, as I was wondering the same thing and also in awe of the plethora of inspector's marks on the underside of the receiver...particularly on the rails. There is more to this gun than first meets the eye. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

03-21-2011, 08:22 PM	#12
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	Sometimes you can't see the forest for the trees. I'll be jiggered...it's a blank toggle! I need to take a nap... I recently read that the Erfurt Gov't arsenal was re-named "RwE" Reichswerke Erfurt after the war, and produced Mauser Sporting rifles for commercial sales until they were shut down by the Allied Control Commission. I wonder if they managed to kick out a few Lugers too. __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

03-23-2011, 04:20 PM	#13
Thorgrimm_the_Vain User Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 5 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Now you are just confusing me even more, whats the significance or insignificance of a blank toggle? more pics

03-23-2011, 04:23 PM	#14
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,989 Thanks: 1,067 Thanked 5,099 Times in 1,676 Posts	It shouldn't have a blank toggle...that is highly unusual. And it doesn't appear that any markings have been removed. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

03-23-2011, 07:04 PM	#15
champ7fc User Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Connecticut Posts: 103 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 1 Post	It may be the angles or the lighting but to me it looks like the toggle has been ground down in the area where the inscription would normally be , Erfurt or DWM. The stampings on the toggle may have been done after the toggle was ground. It looks like a slight dish effect in that area of the toggle. Just my two cents worth. Craig __________________ cfm

03-23-2011, 08:56 PM	#16
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	It woul.d be interesting to lay a straight edge from front to rear of the suspect item. I agree that some photos seem to show a different reflective shine in that area possibly suggesting a different surface angle. How about a boatload of good photos of the front toggle link on the top and from the sides? dju

03-24-2011, 08:02 AM	#17
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,773 Thanked 2,527 Times in 786 Posts	Perhaps it was being prepared for the application of a Crown/SPANDAU.

03-24-2011, 12:07 PM	#18
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,152 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Very Funny George! I disagree on the mark on the toggle being blank. The discoloration of the blueing appears to me in the closeup photo that the marking (likely DWM) was ground off just deep enough to remove the marking and then blended into the ends so that the front and rear markings are intact...in a manner that leaves the toggle link slight dished from front to rear... Could the original poster please check to see if the area where the marking would go is perfectly flat, or dished as I have described? Thanks. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

03-24-2011, 12:52 PM	#19
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	It looks like it was scrubbed and then re-stamped. Attached Thumbnails __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

03-24-2011, 02:15 PM	#20
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,152 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	I am quite knowledgeable in things related to metalworking and manufacturing. I cannot see how this "scrubbing" could be accomplished and at the same time restore the top surface of the toggle to it's original shape without signficant labor and cost. If the objective here was to produce a Faux Krieghoff, I might be able to accept the level of effort, but in this case, this pistol is not in that class of collectibles that would justify it IMHO. I am puzzled why anyone would do such a thing to a gun in this condition. Removing and replacing enough metal so that there is little or no trace of the manufacturer's stamp would require some fairly sophisticated welding, and refinishing, and certainly would require the toggle to be heat-treated to the proper hardness to withstand the impulse of the toggle train during the firing cycle... it just doesn't make sense to me... Anyone got a serious WAG for theory? __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*