Opinions and Comments, Please

[wterrell]

Your opinions and comments are requested to evaluate this M1900-M1906 holster:

[Garfield]

Wes:

I my opinion it is a repro. There is nothing right about it including the cleaning rod which appears to be Portuegese.

[wterrell]

Garfield,
What bothers me is the lack of a US stamp on the front flap. As far as I know, the US stamp was on the holsters for the test pistols but I do not know of the holsters for non-military commercial Lugers. And you are dead-on with the Portuguese assesment.
This holster is touted as original by a respected dealer (and the price is reflactive of that position).
Spoke with Jerry via T-phone and he astutely pointed out that the tool flap is held closed by "snaps"!

Why is it that I am so smart after listening to you gents, but so stupid beforehand?

TOM A. WHAT DO YOU THINK?

[Ron Wood]

Generally it looks exactly like the Portuguese "M-2" 1906 Luger holster pictured in Bender's book(page 434)...except...the Portuguese has one wide belt loop and a loop for a pin punch. Kenyon shows a 1906 Brazilian holster (page 408) that looks even closer, because it has no pin punch loop, but there is no picture of the back side so you can't tell if there is one belt loop or two. The US Test holster has a much different flap.

[wterrell]

Again, Ron, you are a treasure of knowledge. Compare this holster to a navy and see what you think.

[Johnny Peppers]

The holster is shaped nothing like the Model 1900 Test Eagle holsters. It has the appearance of any one of a number of contract Luger holsters, but could very well be a commercial holster considering the snap on the tool pouch.
The cleaning rod is a fairly common generic commercial model. It was made in different lengths up to the Carbine length. As Garfield indicated, it was a part of the tools furnished with the Portuguese contract pistols. Like everything else today, it is reproduced.

[Ron Wood]

Yes, it does strongly resemble a Type I early Navy, but obviously made for a 4.75" barrel rather than a 6" barrel. However, the Type I usually has the horizontal strap loops on the back for use with a sholder stock. Bender does picture a Type I that has been modified with a belt loop (page 248), but again it is a single loop rather than a double. On page 260 he shows a 1906 Naval Commercial Holster, and states "It differs from the military model in that the cover flap has buckle/strap closure, and there are "double belt loops on the back". However again, the double belt loops on German holsters are generally sewn at the top, folded over, and then sewn at the bottom, as opposed to flat sewn on the holster you show. One last shot though, the modified holster on page 248 does have the flat sewn loop.

[Garfield]

Wes:

Navy holsters that had the cover flap retained by a stud did not have belt loops on the back. They had a horizontal piece of leather stiched to the back through which the shoulder strap was inserted, which, at the same time, secured the holster to the shoulder stock. Sometimes these holsters were modified and belt loops were added, however, the top edge of the belt loop was turned under and stitched to the back of the holster, not as done here. Also, the stitch marks left after the shoulder strap retainer was removed are clearly visable.

In any event, this holster appears unissued and the early Navies just weren't made this way. The later Navies that had belt loops had a buckle and strap retainer system for the top flap and the tops of the belt loops were folded under in the same manner as all other P08 holsters.

[wterrell]

I have searched through my books and do not see anything exactly like it. Quite a few holsters that have traits in common with it but still not quite right.
I guess I am going to have to break down and get a copy of a holster book. Never thought I would need one.

[quote] Type I usually has the horizontal strap loops on the back for use with a sholder stock. <hr></blockquote>

[quote]Also, the stitch marks left after the shoulder strap retainer was removed are clearly visable.
<hr></blockquote>

Yep. No navy

[quote]could very well be a commercial holster considering the snap on the tool pouch.
<hr></blockquote>

Johnny, how much later were the snaps used?

[Navy]

Pls let me alabi first: and he has provided me with a real POS computer and even worse monitor, so the resolution is not very good.

Now on to what i think.

fake. The belt loop angles are not like any I have ever seen on any original Luger holster except a small batch that were made for Weimar cavalry units in the 1930s. Second, I don't like the look of the rod pocket flap; doesn't appear correct. Third, the face of the holster seems inconsistent with the back in terms of wear, but that may simply be the poor resolution and finally, with the exceptions of the Turkish and Thai contracts, I am unaware of any recognized Luger varient holster that i have not personally seen, and I have not seen or heard of any like this before.

Just for my edification, what is the dealer representing it to be?

Hope this helps.
Tom A.

[Johnny Peppers]

Wes,
I tend to lean toward the holster being commercial rather than military. Most commercial holsters do not get the wear and use of a military holster, but the holster obviously does have some use and wear. As to when the snap might have been used, I don't have a clue.
It is not uncommon for military holsters to be copied for commercial sale. I have a commercial copy of the US Model 1912 holster that is identical to the military model except that it is made from a cordovan calfskin and has a suede lining. It is unmarked in any way as to maker, and does not have the US on the flap.

[wterrell]

Tom,
Here is the total discription:

[quote]Holster. M1900-M1906. Brown. With Rod and Tool. Very Rare. Excellent++. $895 <hr></blockquote>

[Johnny Peppers]

Wes,
One thing that I forgot to add was that Lugers with 4.75 inch barrels were made right up to the end of production by Mauser. The holster could actually be from most any period of manufacture of the Luger and not just limited to the 1900/1906.

[wterrell]

Johnny,
I am concerned about the "snaps" on the cleaning rod flap and the loading tool flap. Were snaps in use in the 1900-06 period? These snaps are the type that have male and female components such as on some types of bluejeans, etc.

[Navy]

Now that I have found a better monitor, I would posit the view that this is a custom made commercial holster, probably from the late 30's or early 40's; it looks like it is compatible with the Mauser M1936 GNR contract pistols, and I have run across variants of that holster that were made out of what appeared to be eel skin and were leather lined. This (hypothetical) dating would make it compatible with the snap tool pouch. Having said that, the orange thread bothers me because the orange color one sees on Imperial era holsters was due to the use of merchurichrome soaked linen thread; by the 1930's, cotton thread was in use and it was white.

What does it smell like inside?

Tom A [img]confused.gif[/img]

[Garfield]

Tom:

Is this holster a candidate for the "nibble" test?

Good Hunting,

[Navy]

Hey Your Honor,

One gets snack food where one can...

Tom A <img src="graemlins/drink.gif" border="0" alt="[cherrsagai]" />

[wterrell]

Seller says that he has a pic of the exact holster in a 1906 German catalogue. He says that snaps were in use in 1900.

Will post pic as soon as I receive it. He says that he will have to run it through a copier first.

I have found a copy of Bender and in the future will not display myself as quite the fool that I am! (?)

[wterrell]

Seller also says that an exact type of holster is displayed in Bender p. 541 which has snaps.
Also says that that type of holster is displayed in the Dutch Luger book.

[Garfield]

Wes

Are you certain that seller said Bender, pg 541? No pic a a holster like that there. It is the US section. I am refering to Bender, Luger Holsters and Accessories of the 2oth Century.