1900 Swiss Luger

RAHamilton · 08-28-2004, 01:51 PM

Gentlemen:

I previously posted some pictures from a 1900 Swiss that I was contemplating purchasing. I went ahead and purchased this Luger and took several photos, which are posted below with some additional comments. Again, the pictures are quite clear and should answer most questions, but basic information is as follows:

The numbers (SN# 2914) all match including the all external and internal parts. There are some interesting stamps on the underside of the receiver including: the stamp that is often mistaken for the "flaming bomb" and also a couple of 8's and 0's, which can be plainly seen in the photos.

This particular Swiss has definitely been reblued and I still do not know by whom. I received some very good comments from Pete, Ron, Panda, Jamka, and would certainly welcome any and all comments and or observations. I will post some additional information under some of the pictures as per my own observations.

This next photo clearly shows the area under the safety lever. As you will notice it is blue and not "in the white", however it is also easy to discern that the area was machined as it still has the tiny machining marks and a slightly raised edge at the outer portions.

This photo shows the stamp that looks like the "flaming bomb", but is identical to the one Viggo shows in the technical section. It is not easily identified in the photo, but it is directly behind the takedown lever in the small well.

This photo shows the two 8'S that are on the underside of the receiver.

There are a few additional photos in the next reply to this original thread.

RAHamilton · 08-28-2004, 02:18 PM

Here are some additional photos and comments.

This particular photo shows the 0'S on the left side of the receiver. The one at the top looks more like a U, but I believe it is simply a lightly struck 0.

This is a little better picture of the "flaming bomb" look-alike!

This photo shows the bottom of the magazine. You will notice that the SN# 2914 is stamped on the bottom. From previous information, it is my understanding these should not be serial numbered. An interesting feature is that the serial number begins with the 2 on the left ear of the mag bottom. Interesting?

This image shows the rear of the frame, which has the small Swiss cross and does show the "V" notch in the rear sight. The flatside of the rear toggle link does also have the small Swiss cross, but the rear sight is not "U" shaped. The photo may be be real distinctive, but it is clearly a sharp "V".

This photo shows the witness mark, which is inline and one strike, that would suggest this Swiss has not been rebarreled.

I am looking for any and all comments from you Swiss "Experts" to assist me in determining just exactly the authenticity of this Luger. I believe it is all original with the exception of being reblued and the (serial number) forced matched magazine.

Thanks in advance for your comments!

Best Regards,
Bob

Pete Ebbink · 08-30-2004, 09:39 AM

Hi Bob,

Thanks for taking the time to post photos of a really nice Swiss M1900.

According to the serial number tables in the V. Bobba book on page 206, your pistol was one of a batch of 1055 pistols made for the Swiss in the 1904 timeframe with a serial number run from 2501 to 3555.

I am certainly not a Swiss expert, but offer the following opinions regarding the refinish work :

1. It looks to be a nice quality rework.

2. My guess (WAG) would be that is was probably not an arsenal refinish, though, of your Ordnance-issued pistol. If reworked at Bern, I would wager a guess that the "polished" area under the thumb safety would have been restored "in the white"...to meet Ordnance/military specifications. Since the polished area was a visual tool to let the shooter know the "safe" status of the pistol, I cannot imagine it would have been left over-blued by the Bern arsenal or a Swiss authorized local rework arsenal.

The magazine that would be correct for a Swiss Ordnance M1900 would be the "insert" type of wooden magazine with the metal disks inserted into the "buttons" of the magazine bottom...and which were un-numbered to the gun. I have been able to pick up several of the insert magazines on e-Bay and gun shows in the price range of $ 150-200 for a vg condition piece.

The flaming bomb proofmark is reported in many of the DWM M1900 and even some M1906 lugers...not just AE lugers.

I think the misc. stampings under the receiver/barrel are just misc. inspection/inspector markings at DWM or possibly Bern...but I do not recall any "cataloguing" research, done, that would further identify these.

Congratulations on a nice Swiss M1900 !

Regards,

Pete...

panda · 08-30-2004, 10:58 AM

Not much to add to what Pete's just said.

Only the very early P1900 mags were factory-numbered. This insert-free mag belongs most likely to a P06/24 and has been numbered to match the gun's s/n.
I can see two reasons for the s/n:
a) The owner numbered for identification purposes (the strange thing is that these numbers only seem to have been added on the P06/24 mags).
b) Some poorly informed previous seller numbered it to make it look a match (numbered mags are in general common for Lugers but exceptional for Swiss lugers).

Right now, I cannot explain the presence of the flaming bomb. It almost certainly isn't of Swiss origin (I haven't seen it on the W+F 1882 revolvers of the same period either), maybe DWM. If nobody else can in the meantime, I'll let you know if I can find further information in the Swiss literature.

RAHamilton · 08-31-2004, 05:33 AM

Panda & Pete:

Thanks for your comments and observations. The issue of the "flaming bomb" is another matter. The mark is not the same mark as the flaming bomb found on some AE Lugers, but rather a similar mark with concentric intertwined circles found on some DWM Lugers and often mistaken for the flaming bomb.

In the technical section, Viggo posted a picture of this mark, which unless viewed closely could very easily be mistaken for the flaming bomb. If either of you know where I might be able to pick up a proper "disc" magazine I would appreciate it. Pete, I know you mentioned you have found them on ebay, but with so many fakes out there and my limited knowledge I wouldn't know if I was purchasing the "real McCoy".

I would much rather purchase one from a reputable dealer, or other Forum member if possible. Thanks for your comments, they are greatly appreciated.

Best Regards,
Bob

Guisan · 08-31-2004, 05:38 AM

The flaming bomb is mentioned in Bobba's book on page 210 and in John Walther's book on page 301 (German version).

Walther describes it as a DWM proof stamp for internal use in the factory or "werksinterner GÃ?Â¼testempel der DWM".

Thanks,
Guisan.

panda · 08-31-2004, 08:48 AM

Bob,
You may want to check with Swissdagger from CH for a matching mag.
http://www.swissdagger.com/
Cheers, Panda

Pete Ebbink · 08-31-2004, 08:56 PM

Hi Bob,

Here is the "flaming bomb" stamping in the front frame well of my 1906 M2 Portuguese DWM luger (# 2866) :

Regarding Swiss insert magazines. I am on the road this week, but will post some photos of a couple of my magazines on Thursday afternoon. If you happen to go to the Tulsa gun shows there are usually some there; I have always managed to find at least one at every show I have attended.

You might call the Simspon shop in Galesburg, IL as well...not sure if they have any "spares" for sale or not...

http://www.simpsonltd.com/GeneralInf...n/feedback.htm

Regards,

Pete...

swissdagger · 09-01-2004, 02:32 AM

I have some M1900 Mags available,one in mint condition. Please contact me per email.
Regards
Stefan

RAHamilton · 09-01-2004, 06:47 AM

Stefan:

I sent you an email through your web site about the proper disc mags for my newly acquired 1900 Swiss. If you didn't receive it, please let me know. Thanks for your assistance!

Best Regards,
Bob

Ron Wood · 09-01-2004, 10:26 AM

Bob,
Even though your 1900 has been reblued (and quite well I might add), it is still an excellent example from the very beginning of Luger production. With the proper magazine you definitely have a keeper. Congratulations

Pete Ebbink · 09-02-2004, 04:59 PM

Hi Bob,

Here are a couple of photos of some of my Swiss insert magazines...

Unlike you...I seem, lately, to going about this luger collecting business a bit bass-akwards...

Cannot tell you how many nice minty holsters and spare magazines I have that are just waiting for the right luger...

p.s. Buying from Stefan...you will not go wrong. He is one of the good guys selling honest stuff at fair prices...consider buying 2 if possible for your nice M1900 Swiss...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

panda · 09-02-2004, 05:13 PM

Pete, just to catch on to what you said about Swissdagger: his reputation on ebay doubtlessly speaks for doing business with him.

http://feedback.ebay.com/ws1/eBayISA...663859&frm=284

Guisan · 09-04-2004, 06:29 AM

I fully agree, the things he sells are good quality and he can't help it when some of the biddings at Ebay get out of hand and go way up like with that sight wrench a little while ago.

Thanks,
Guisan.

swissdagger · 09-04-2004, 10:13 AM

Thank you Pete and Panda , you know I look always for good stuff.I`m not interested to sell any junk or fakes.
Pete,if you have too many Holsters without Lugers ,so you should check my website next week, I received some very interesting items.(-;
Regards
Stefan

Pete Ebbink · 10-02-2004, 03:05 PM

Hi Bob H.,

Just sent you a Private Message. Located a '08 M1900 Swiss holster you might want to follow-up on. Condition was great, has a strap, and only $ 250.00 asking. It does not have the magazine pouch added to the top of the closure flap.

Hi Stefan,

Look forward to seeing your new Luger offereings...yes, my empty holsters are lonesome...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

08-28-2004, 01:51 PM	#1
RAHamilton User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Sioux City, Iowa Posts: 55 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	1900 Swiss Luger Gentlemen: I previously posted some pictures from a 1900 Swiss that I was contemplating purchasing. I went ahead and purchased this Luger and took several photos, which are posted below with some additional comments. Again, the pictures are quite clear and should answer most questions, but basic information is as follows: The numbers (SN# 2914) all match including the all external and internal parts. There are some interesting stamps on the underside of the receiver including: the stamp that is often mistaken for the "flaming bomb" and also a couple of 8's and 0's, which can be plainly seen in the photos. This particular Swiss has definitely been reblued and I still do not know by whom. I received some very good comments from Pete, Ron, Panda, Jamka, and would certainly welcome any and all comments and or observations. I will post some additional information under some of the pictures as per my own observations. This next photo clearly shows the area under the safety lever. As you will notice it is blue and not "in the white", however it is also easy to discern that the area was machined as it still has the tiny machining marks and a slightly raised edge at the outer portions. This photo shows the stamp that looks like the "flaming bomb", but is identical to the one Viggo shows in the technical section. It is not easily identified in the photo, but it is directly behind the takedown lever in the small well. This photo shows the two 8'S that are on the underside of the receiver. There are a few additional photos in the next reply to this original thread.

08-31-2004, 05:38 AM	#6
Guisan User Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 112 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	The flaming bomb is mentioned in Bobba's book on page 210 and in John Walther's book on page 301 (German version). Walther describes it as a DWM proof stamp for internal use in the factory or "werksinterner GÃ?Â¼testempel der DWM". Thanks, Guisan. __________________ Fight to your last cartridge, then fight with your bayonets. No surrender. Fight to the death. --Gen. Henri Guisan, Switzerland, July '40

08-31-2004, 08:56 PM	#8
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hi Bob, Here is the "flaming bomb" stamping in the front frame well of my 1906 M2 Portuguese DWM luger (# 2866) : Regarding Swiss insert magazines. I am on the road this week, but will post some photos of a couple of my magazines on Thursday afternoon. If you happen to go to the Tulsa gun shows there are usually some there; I have always managed to find at least one at every show I have attended. You might call the Simspon shop in Galesburg, IL as well...not sure if they have any "spares" for sale or not... http://www.simpsonltd.com/GeneralInf...n/feedback.htm Regards, Pete... Last edited by Pete Ebbink; 12-26-2004 at 01:09 PM.

09-01-2004, 10:26 AM	#11
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,986 Thanks: 1,065 Thanked 5,088 Times in 1,674 Posts	Bob, Even though your 1900 has been reblued (and quite well I might add), it is still an excellent example from the very beginning of Luger production. With the proper magazine you definitely have a keeper. Congratulations __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

09-04-2004, 06:29 AM	#14
Guisan User Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 112 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	I fully agree, the things he sells are good quality and he can't help it when some of the biddings at Ebay get out of hand and go way up like with that sight wrench a little while ago. Thanks, Guisan. __________________ Fight to your last cartridge, then fight with your bayonets. No surrender. Fight to the death. --Gen. Henri Guisan, Switzerland, July '40

08-28-2004, 02:18 PM	#2
RAHamilton User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Sioux City, Iowa Posts: 55 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Here are some additional photos and comments. This particular photo shows the 0'S on the left side of the receiver. The one at the top looks more like a U, but I believe it is simply a lightly struck 0. This is a little better picture of the "flaming bomb" look-alike! This photo shows the bottom of the magazine. You will notice that the SN# 2914 is stamped on the bottom. From previous information, it is my understanding these should not be serial numbered. An interesting feature is that the serial number begins with the 2 on the left ear of the mag bottom. Interesting? This image shows the rear of the frame, which has the small Swiss cross and does show the "V" notch in the rear sight. The flatside of the rear toggle link does also have the small Swiss cross, but the rear sight is not "U" shaped. The photo may be be real distinctive, but it is clearly a sharp "V". This photo shows the witness mark, which is inline and one strike, that would suggest this Swiss has not been rebarreled. I am looking for any and all comments from you Swiss "Experts" to assist me in determining just exactly the authenticity of this Luger. I believe it is all original with the exception of being reblued and the (serial number) forced matched magazine. Thanks in advance for your comments! Best Regards, Bob

08-30-2004, 09:39 AM	#3
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hi Bob, Thanks for taking the time to post photos of a really nice Swiss M1900. According to the serial number tables in the V. Bobba book on page 206, your pistol was one of a batch of 1055 pistols made for the Swiss in the 1904 timeframe with a serial number run from 2501 to 3555. I am certainly not a Swiss expert, but offer the following opinions regarding the refinish work : 1. It looks to be a nice quality rework. 2. My guess (WAG) would be that is was probably not an arsenal refinish, though, of your Ordnance-issued pistol. If reworked at Bern, I would wager a guess that the "polished" area under the thumb safety would have been restored "in the white"...to meet Ordnance/military specifications. Since the polished area was a visual tool to let the shooter know the "safe" status of the pistol, I cannot imagine it would have been left over-blued by the Bern arsenal or a Swiss authorized local rework arsenal. The magazine that would be correct for a Swiss Ordnance M1900 would be the "insert" type of wooden magazine with the metal disks inserted into the "buttons" of the magazine bottom...and which were un-numbered to the gun. I have been able to pick up several of the insert magazines on e-Bay and gun shows in the price range of $ 150-200 for a vg condition piece. The flaming bomb proofmark is reported in many of the DWM M1900 and even some M1906 lugers...not just AE lugers. I think the misc. stampings under the receiver/barrel are just misc. inspection/inspector markings at DWM or possibly Bern...but I do not recall any "cataloguing" research, done, that would further identify these. Congratulations on a nice Swiss M1900 ! Regards, Pete...

08-30-2004, 10:58 AM	#4
panda User Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 148 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Not much to add to what Pete's just said. Only the very early P1900 mags were factory-numbered. This insert-free mag belongs most likely to a P06/24 and has been numbered to match the gun's s/n. I can see two reasons for the s/n: a) The owner numbered for identification purposes (the strange thing is that these numbers only seem to have been added on the P06/24 mags). b) Some poorly informed previous seller numbered it to make it look a match (numbered mags are in general common for Lugers but exceptional for Swiss lugers). Right now, I cannot explain the presence of the flaming bomb. It almost certainly isn't of Swiss origin (I haven't seen it on the W+F 1882 revolvers of the same period either), maybe DWM. If nobody else can in the meantime, I'll let you know if I can find further information in the Swiss literature.

08-31-2004, 05:33 AM	#5
RAHamilton User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Sioux City, Iowa Posts: 55 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Panda & Pete: Thanks for your comments and observations. The issue of the "flaming bomb" is another matter. The mark is not the same mark as the flaming bomb found on some AE Lugers, but rather a similar mark with concentric intertwined circles found on some DWM Lugers and often mistaken for the flaming bomb. In the technical section, Viggo posted a picture of this mark, which unless viewed closely could very easily be mistaken for the flaming bomb. If either of you know where I might be able to pick up a proper "disc" magazine I would appreciate it. Pete, I know you mentioned you have found them on ebay, but with so many fakes out there and my limited knowledge I wouldn't know if I was purchasing the "real McCoy". I would much rather purchase one from a reputable dealer, or other Forum member if possible. Thanks for your comments, they are greatly appreciated. Best Regards, Bob

08-31-2004, 08:48 AM	#7
panda User Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 148 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Bob, You may want to check with Swissdagger from CH for a matching mag. http://www.swissdagger.com/ Cheers, Panda

09-01-2004, 02:32 AM	#9
swissdagger User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Switzerland Posts: 53 Thanks: 1 Thanked 8 Times in 4 Posts	I have some M1900 Mags available,one in mint condition. Please contact me per email. Regards Stefan

09-01-2004, 06:47 AM	#10
RAHamilton User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Sioux City, Iowa Posts: 55 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Stefan: I sent you an email through your web site about the proper disc mags for my newly acquired 1900 Swiss. If you didn't receive it, please let me know. Thanks for your assistance! Best Regards, Bob

09-02-2004, 04:59 PM	#12
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hi Bob, Here are a couple of photos of some of my Swiss insert magazines... Unlike you...I seem, lately, to going about this luger collecting business a bit bass-akwards... Cannot tell you how many nice minty holsters and spare magazines I have that are just waiting for the right luger... p.s. Buying from Stefan...you will not go wrong. He is one of the good guys selling honest stuff at fair prices...consider buying 2 if possible for your nice M1900 Swiss... Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

09-02-2004, 05:13 PM	#13
panda User Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 148 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Pete, just to catch on to what you said about Swissdagger: his reputation on ebay doubtlessly speaks for doing business with him. http://feedback.ebay.com/ws1/eBayISA...663859&frm=284

09-04-2004, 10:13 AM	#15
swissdagger User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Switzerland Posts: 53 Thanks: 1 Thanked 8 Times in 4 Posts	Thank you Pete and Panda , you know I look always for good stuff.I`m not interested to sell any junk or fakes. Pete,if you have too many Holsters without Lugers ,so you should check my website next week, I received some very interesting items.(-; Regards Stefan

10-02-2004, 03:05 PM	#16
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hi Bob H., Just sent you a Private Message. Located a '08 M1900 Swiss holster you might want to follow-up on. Condition was great, has a strap, and only $ 250.00 asking. It does not have the magazine pouch added to the top of the closure flap. Hi Stefan, Look forward to seeing your new Luger offereings...yes, my empty holsters are lonesome... Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />