06/24 first variation... blueing

pisto · 07-02-2003, 01:34 PM

Hello,
that Swiss luger is rust blued, as I recognized lately - inside the steel in the frame and reciever is still shiny. I compared with the second variation which is almost salt blued.
Serial Nr. is 20 xxx.

Regards

Pete Ebbink · 07-03-2003, 11:32 AM

Hello Pisto,

A very nice Swiss luger rig...

If you do not mind a couple of questions :

1. Is the wood of the grip panels and magazine bottom varnished/shellaced ? Or is the wood left "natural".

2. Does you magazine bottom have any serial numbers stamped ?

I ask both question as these topics have been previous asked about Swiss lugers here on the Forum.

p.s. Do you have a Swiss holster for your rig ? There are a couple of Forum members that live in Europe that might be able to sell you a nice one, if you do not have a holster. If you need one, you might post a WTB classified ad here on the LF in the ads section. Or if you send me an e-mail at "pebbink@pacbell.net", I can get you in touch with these folks...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

pisto · 07-03-2003, 02:56 PM

Pete,
thanks I be proud of that gun as You can imagine. Even for a Swiss Luger it is a phantastic condition. Not many of those are in that shape. Hope You can read my bad English ...

To your questions:
I m familar with those , because I did read it before. I
- the grips are defenetly not shellaced! (I never saw shellac on that grips - that would cause to much work and because of the reason Swiss armorers left a not checkered rim on the grips to save work, I would suppose shellac grips where never made by the factory)
Shellac finnish I knew only on very expensive Hunting rifles(double, over & under...) and some antique blackpowder guns - it is quite difficult to get it done and very expensive at all.

- that one came just with one unnumbered magazine (not shellaced) but I bought some other mags with that, and again there have some been numbered with the last 2 digits.
I did see quite a few 06/24 mags, but none of them had been shellaced.

- Notice: Swiss wood bottoms are a bit different in theyr design compared to WWI German issues.

The holster for that is unfortunatedly one of a 06/29 and so was the spare mag. So I m still in need of a nice holster.

Pete Ebbink · 09-21-2003, 10:07 PM

Hello Roland,

A LF member named "Swissdaggers" has many, many nice Swiss holsters for sale. They are located in Switzerland, where he lives. Here is his web site link :

http://www.swissdagger.com/

I also posted a jpeg of the inside of the luger you asked about in the Member's Gallery for my 1906 W+F Bern, on page 3 of the galleries.

Best Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

panda · 09-22-2003, 04:00 AM

Hello Pisto,

Very impressive bluing for a 06/24. Well done!

I have a couple of questions too:
Does your luger have a "P" stamped? and if so how does the bluing look like at and around the "P"?

Cheers, Panda

pisto · 09-23-2003, 11:16 PM

Panda, the "P" is stamped on the left side of the panel on the second variation which is the salt blued type as well. The first variation on the picture donÃ?Â´t have a "P" stamped for privatisation which is kind of uncommon too.
What is your intension?
Do you mean the colour is changing by stamping a blued steel surface?

Dwight Gruber · 09-24-2003, 09:52 AM

Roland,

Stamping into the steel of a gun changes the steel immediately around the stamp--compresses it and "swells" it a bit. If the stamp is made before the pistol is blued this swelling is usually smoothed away by final polishing.

If the stamp is made after the pistol is blued the swelling is not removed and the compression alters the nature of the bluing, making it a bit lighter than the blued steel around it--this is sometimes referred to as "halo".

--Dwight

panda · 09-24-2003, 10:37 AM

Pisto, I was referring to the "halo" issue raised by Dwight. I'm wondering how severely the bluing had been altered, if at all, around the "P" of your CH-lugers. I suspect that the intensity of this "halo" depends on the bluing quality (therefore the Luger-variation) and the stamping intensity.

Dwight, the "P" on CH army lugers is always done after bluing. It's done when the owner retires. However, since the guns are sometimes REblued after stamping, no variations of the bluing can be seen.

panda · 09-24-2003, 10:46 AM

Pisto, funny place for stamping the "P". Every "P" I've seen so far on a CH-Luger were on the frame below the trigger. Though I've seen a "P" stamped on the left-hand side of a frame of a A49 (SIG 210) behind the trigger.

pisto · 09-24-2003, 04:04 PM

Panda,just talking about the lokation of the "P" on Swiss Lugers - you are right, most of them are on the trigger guards, but have you seen one on the reciever already?
Here it is: that one is on a 06/29 red grip variation, as you can see at the serial number too.
Dwigt, of course the swelling can be seen on that "P" but here again, there is not to rekognize a real colour difference on the area around the new stamp! I agree with Panda, that it is not stamped heavy enough to cause a real difference in the colour.

Pete Ebbink · 09-24-2003, 06:58 PM

Hello Guys,

Here is a photo of another swiss luger with its P-stamp on the left side...it is the gun I started a discussion thread about a few days back titled "Odd Swiss Luger For Sale"...

Roland, always great to see a face of a LF member ! Thanks for posting...mine is in the Rogues Gallery...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

panda · 09-27-2003, 12:21 PM

Pisto, I'd never noticed any stamping on such locations. In the meantime I've looked up some of my books and found similar stampings too.

Pete, I'd be wary with this funny luger. Also, I tend to agree with Guisan whose explanation is the only one that makes sense to me.
http://pub18.ezboard.com/ftheswissri...picID=43.topic

Pete Ebbink · 10-02-2003, 01:51 PM

Hello Panda,

I tended to agree with Guisan's "read" of this odd Swiss 1900/1906/1929 hybrid luger.

But a couple of knowledgable luger collectors think this might be a Bern factory pistol after all.

If I were near New York state, I would certainly go to the gun shop to see this one in person.

I was hoping a LF member that lives in New Yourk might have read this discussion and volunteered to go see this pistol in person...but no one has spoken up...so far...

But you are right...nearly $ 4000 for this curious pistol might be too high the risk. Now if it were only $ 1500, I think I would consider buying it...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

panda · 10-05-2003, 12:37 PM

As I understand, there is no evidence whatsoever that this gun was assembled by W+F.

Do these "knowledgeable luger collectors" at least have a plausible explanation why W+F would have made such a gun that looks exactly like a patchwork of 1900-06-29 lugers, and why W+F would have marked it not only with the current Swiss cross but also with the several decades outdated former Swiss cross?

What about the gun's s/n(s)?

Pete Ebbink · 10-05-2003, 12:54 PM

Hello Panda,

The serial number of the gun for sale on Guns-America is # 3283. The other one that is shown in the book I mentioned is # 3822 and is still owned by Ralph Shattuck who lives in Arizona state.

If you switch to the disccussion thread titled "Odd 1900 Swiss For Sale", you can read Ron Wood's opinion about serial # 3283. Ron has many years of luger collecting experience; so I learn alot from him.

I received a private e-mail from # 3822's owner, who also believes it to be a factory hybrid or presentation piece.

But you are correct, no documentation has been put forth to confirm their "opinions".

I am also reminded of those odd 1906/1929 W+F transitional lugers (I think only 2-3 made) shown in V. Bobba's book on pages 140-145 that are a hybird of two luger models. Maybe the guys at Bern had a few crazy weeks in the 1933-1938 timeframe where they got "creative" with old and new parts lying around...(but this is just a WAG on my part...).

As to your question of "why" anyone would do such a thing...maybe the answer was simply because they could and had a plethora of parts to choose from...

Next time I am in Arizona on business, I will try to make an appointment to see pistol # 3822 in person and will report my impressions...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

07-02-2003, 01:34 PM	#1
pisto User Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Germany Posts: 228 Thanks: 1 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	06/24 first variation... blueing Hello, that Swiss luger is rust blued, as I recognized lately - inside the steel in the frame and reciever is still shiny. I compared with the second variation which is almost salt blued. Serial Nr. is 20 xxx. Regards

07-03-2003, 11:32 AM	#2
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hello Pisto, A very nice Swiss luger rig... If you do not mind a couple of questions : 1. Is the wood of the grip panels and magazine bottom varnished/shellaced ? Or is the wood left "natural". 2. Does you magazine bottom have any serial numbers stamped ? I ask both question as these topics have been previous asked about Swiss lugers here on the Forum. p.s. Do you have a Swiss holster for your rig ? There are a couple of Forum members that live in Europe that might be able to sell you a nice one, if you do not have a holster. If you need one, you might post a WTB classified ad here on the LF in the ads section. Or if you send me an e-mail at "pebbink@pacbell.net", I can get you in touch with these folks... Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

07-03-2003, 02:56 PM	#3
pisto User Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Germany Posts: 228 Thanks: 1 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Pete, thanks I be proud of that gun as You can imagine. Even for a Swiss Luger it is a phantastic condition. Not many of those are in that shape. Hope You can read my bad English ... To your questions: I m familar with those , because I did read it before. I - the grips are defenetly not shellaced! (I never saw shellac on that grips - that would cause to much work and because of the reason Swiss armorers left a not checkered rim on the grips to save work, I would suppose shellac grips where never made by the factory) Shellac finnish I knew only on very expensive Hunting rifles(double, over & under...) and some antique blackpowder guns - it is quite difficult to get it done and very expensive at all. - that one came just with one unnumbered magazine (not shellaced) but I bought some other mags with that, and again there have some been numbered with the last 2 digits. I did see quite a few 06/24 mags, but none of them had been shellaced. - Notice: Swiss wood bottoms are a bit different in theyr design compared to WWI German issues. The holster for that is unfortunatedly one of a 06/29 and so was the spare mag. So I m still in need of a nice holster.

09-21-2003, 10:07 PM	#4
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hello Roland, A LF member named "Swissdaggers" has many, many nice Swiss holsters for sale. They are located in Switzerland, where he lives. Here is his web site link : http://www.swissdagger.com/ I also posted a jpeg of the inside of the luger you asked about in the Member's Gallery for my 1906 W+F Bern, on page 3 of the galleries. Best Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

09-22-2003, 04:00 AM	#5
panda User Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 148 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hello Pisto, Very impressive bluing for a 06/24. Well done! I have a couple of questions too: Does your luger have a "P" stamped? and if so how does the bluing look like at and around the "P"? Cheers, Panda

09-23-2003, 11:16 PM	#6
pisto User Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Germany Posts: 228 Thanks: 1 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Panda, the "P" is stamped on the left side of the panel on the second variation which is the salt blued type as well. The first variation on the picture donÃ?Â´t have a "P" stamped for privatisation which is kind of uncommon too. What is your intension? Do you mean the colour is changing by stamping a blued steel surface?

09-24-2003, 09:52 AM	#7
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,889 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,281 Times in 423 Posts	Roland, Stamping into the steel of a gun changes the steel immediately around the stamp--compresses it and "swells" it a bit. If the stamp is made before the pistol is blued this swelling is usually smoothed away by final polishing. If the stamp is made after the pistol is blued the swelling is not removed and the compression alters the nature of the bluing, making it a bit lighter than the blued steel around it--this is sometimes referred to as "halo". --Dwight

09-24-2003, 10:37 AM	#8
panda User Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 148 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Pisto, I was referring to the "halo" issue raised by Dwight. I'm wondering how severely the bluing had been altered, if at all, around the "P" of your CH-lugers. I suspect that the intensity of this "halo" depends on the bluing quality (therefore the Luger-variation) and the stamping intensity. Dwight, the "P" on CH army lugers is always done after bluing. It's done when the owner retires. However, since the guns are sometimes REblued after stamping, no variations of the bluing can be seen.

09-24-2003, 10:46 AM	#9
panda User Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 148 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Pisto, funny place for stamping the "P". Every "P" I've seen so far on a CH-Luger were on the frame below the trigger. Though I've seen a "P" stamped on the left-hand side of a frame of a A49 (SIG 210) behind the trigger.

09-24-2003, 04:04 PM	#10
pisto User Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Germany Posts: 228 Thanks: 1 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Panda,just talking about the lokation of the "P" on Swiss Lugers - you are right, most of them are on the trigger guards, but have you seen one on the reciever already? Here it is: that one is on a 06/29 red grip variation, as you can see at the serial number too. Dwigt, of course the swelling can be seen on that "P" but here again, there is not to rekognize a real colour difference on the area around the new stamp! I agree with Panda, that it is not stamped heavy enough to cause a real difference in the colour.

09-24-2003, 06:58 PM	#11
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hello Guys, Here is a photo of another swiss luger with its P-stamp on the left side...it is the gun I started a discussion thread about a few days back titled "Odd Swiss Luger For Sale"... Roland, always great to see a face of a LF member ! Thanks for posting...mine is in the Rogues Gallery... Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

09-27-2003, 12:21 PM	#12
panda User Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 148 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Pisto, I'd never noticed any stamping on such locations. In the meantime I've looked up some of my books and found similar stampings too. Pete, I'd be wary with this funny luger. Also, I tend to agree with Guisan whose explanation is the only one that makes sense to me. http://pub18.ezboard.com/ftheswissri...picID=43.topic

10-02-2003, 01:51 PM	#13
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hello Panda, I tended to agree with Guisan's "read" of this odd Swiss 1900/1906/1929 hybrid luger. But a couple of knowledgable luger collectors think this might be a Bern factory pistol after all. If I were near New York state, I would certainly go to the gun shop to see this one in person. I was hoping a LF member that lives in New Yourk might have read this discussion and volunteered to go see this pistol in person...but no one has spoken up...so far... But you are right...nearly $ 4000 for this curious pistol might be too high the risk. Now if it were only $ 1500, I think I would consider buying it... Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

10-05-2003, 12:37 PM	#14
panda User Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 148 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	As I understand, there is no evidence whatsoever that this gun was assembled by W+F. Do these "knowledgeable luger collectors" at least have a plausible explanation why W+F would have made such a gun that looks exactly like a patchwork of 1900-06-29 lugers, and why W+F would have marked it not only with the current Swiss cross but also with the several decades outdated former Swiss cross? What about the gun's s/n(s)?

10-05-2003, 12:54 PM	#15
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hello Panda, The serial number of the gun for sale on Guns-America is # 3283. The other one that is shown in the book I mentioned is # 3822 and is still owned by Ralph Shattuck who lives in Arizona state. If you switch to the disccussion thread titled "Odd 1900 Swiss For Sale", you can read Ron Wood's opinion about serial # 3283. Ron has many years of luger collecting experience; so I learn alot from him. I received a private e-mail from # 3822's owner, who also believes it to be a factory hybrid or presentation piece. But you are correct, no documentation has been put forth to confirm their "opinions". I am also reminded of those odd 1906/1929 W+F transitional lugers (I think only 2-3 made) shown in V. Bobba's book on pages 140-145 that are a hybird of two luger models. Maybe the guys at Bern had a few crazy weeks in the 1933-1938 timeframe where they got "creative" with old and new parts lying around...(but this is just a WAG on my part...). As to your question of "why" anyone would do such a thing...maybe the answer was simply because they could and had a plethora of parts to choose from... Next time I am in Arizona on business, I will try to make an appointment to see pistol # 3822 in person and will report my impressions... Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />