Arisaka T99

[Stevie]

My sister gave me(yes, free)a T99 Arisaka rifle. Not sporterized, matching #'s, but the mums been ground on some. It's been through this years spring floods, and ain't the slickest Arisaka I've ever seen. Really quite good once I scraped off the rust and dirt. The price for ammo is crazy! The only source I could find for factory cartridges in 7.7 Jap is Cabelas,$36 per 20 for Norma(+freight). Egads, I need to find a bayonet so I won't have to shoot it! Any on know of a source for mil. surplus Japanese ammunition?

Thanx, Stevie.

[Doubs]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Stevie:
<strong>Any on know of a source for mil. surplus Japanese ammunition? Thanx, Stevie.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">If there is, I haven't seen it. A few years back I believe there was some 7.7mm machinegun ammo on pan strips for machineguns but supposedly too hot for rifles. Otherwise, it's been many years to the best of my knowledge.

[Sieger]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Stevie:
<strong>My sister gave me(yes, free)a T99 Arisaka rifle. Not sporterized, matching #'s, but the mums been ground on some. It's been through this years spring floods, and ain't the slickest Arisaka I've ever seen. Really quite good once I scraped off the rust and dirt. The price for ammo is crazy! The only source I could find for factory cartridges in 7.7 Jap is Cabelas,$36 per 20 for Norma(+freight). Egads, I need to find a bayonet so I won't have to shoot it! Any on know of a source for mil. surplus Japanese ammunition?

Thanx, Stevie.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Dear Doubs:

I believe this is one of the military cartridges that Graff and Sons is now loading. If not, you will now have to learn how to reload. This is quite easy for this cartridge.

Most of the 99s had chrome lines bores, so most of them are like new inside.

If you want to reload, please let me know. It will take about 2 minutes to tell you just how.

Sieger
<img border="0" alt="[byebye]" title="" src="graemlins/wave.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[byebye]" title="" src="graemlins/wave.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[byebye]" title="" src="graemlins/wave.gif" />

[Jim Keenan]

AFAIK, no substantial quantities of Japanese ammo were ever imported. Where the war in Europe left tons of German rifles and ammo in depots which importers "raided", the war in the Pacific left the ammo scattered around jungle islands where it just rotted away. During the early occupation, GI's were allowed to pick over Japanese arms depots and take weapons (these are the ones with ground crests - unground crests indicate captured weapons), but the ammo was destroyed.

Result, no Japanese surplus ammo. The 7.7 MG ammo in strips mentioned is semi-rimmed (if original) and not usable in the Type 99 rifle.

7.7 Japanese can be made from .30-'06 by full length sizing, trimming and expanding the neck. The base will be smaller than the 7.7 base, but with moderate loads the altered cases will work fine. They should only be neck sized after first firing.

Jim

[Stevie]

Reloading is likly to be my best option. I have all the equipment, but haven't used it in several years. I will probably go ahead and get some Norma 7.7 to see if it shoots well enough to get some reloading dies. I will check Graf and Sons, seem like they used to have tons of brass and other loading goodies. I figure the dies will be cheaper than 1 box of Norma shells.

Thanx, Stevie.

[John -Melb]

If anyone wants to read about low cost provision of ammo for a 7.7 Jap, I suggest they read "No Surrender", it tells the story Lt Hiroo Onada, who gave up fighting WW2 in about 1972! Lt Onada stated that he converted "Lewis Gun" ammunition for use in his Type 99. I never gave this much thought until I discovered that the Lewis Guns used by the Japanese Navy were ex British WW1 vintage guns chambered for .303 British!
Apparently he filed off the rims and then filled an extractor grove on the base of the case, using a triangular file!

DON'T TRY THIS AT HOME! I MENTION THIS FOR INTEREST ONLY AND DO NOT RECOMMEND ANYONE USING "RELOADING" ADVISE FROM LT ONADA!

As for the cost of ammunition,(not to mention gun laws!) you fellows have got it good. I've got to go into town tommorow to purchase ammo for a 44/40 Winchester .....at $AUS67 a box of 50! Small pistol primer run at about $AUS 50 a thousand.

[Stevie]

Don't worry John. I'm not as ambitous as Lt.Onada. I don't suppose it will break me to buy a couple box's of expensive ammo, and save brass to reload. I read some about these mis-guided, but dedicated Japanese soldiers. You really have to admire thier courage.

[Doubs]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Jim Keenan:
<strong>AFAIK, no substantial quantities of Japanese ammo were ever imported. During the early occupation, GI's were allowed to pick over Japanese arms depots and take weapons (these are the ones with ground crests - unground crests indicate captured weapons), but the ammo was destroyed.
Jim</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">I have a 6.5 rifle with ground mum that was picked up from the battlefield on Okinawa. My uncle, an NCO, was in an infantry unit assigned to battlefield clean-up about the time fighting ceased on Okinawa and he sent approximately a dozen rifles home. He gave me the last one he had and a bayonet for it. IIRC, he said that every rifle he sent home had had the mum ground off IAW Army directives. IMO, the mum is not a positive means of determining how a rifle was acquired.

There was some surplus Japanese 6.5mm ammo imported about 1960 and sold by "Ye Olde Hunter" (Interarms Corp.) for $5 a hundred. I fired a couple of hundred rounds of it. I haven't seen any surplus Japanese ammo since except the machinegun ammo already mentioned.

[John -Melb]

I heard from an old Aussie soldier that the reason some Arisakas and T99's had the "mum" ground from the reciever and some didn't depended on when the rifles were "acquired". During the war people had more important things to do than worrying about making cosmetic changes to captured enemy equipment. After the war ended it was decided that any rifles being returned as trophies had to have the "mum" removed. This probably explains the captured during the war signified by an unground "mum" story.
I have three myself, two Arisakas one rifle and one carbine, the rifle in intact, the carbine ground. I also have a T99, unground, which came from the estate of an old soldier spent a far bit of WW2 behind Japanese lines. I have been told that the T99's were often carried by Japanese marines, who were mostly used as shock troops. I have also been told that the infantry always carried the rifle, the carbine mostly being used by garrison troops. I would have thought the carbine a better piece of kit for jungle work, but I suppose the rifle makes a better handle for a bayonet!

[Edward Tinker]

Stevie, great gun, and the price was right!

John (AU), I have heard numerous stories about the gound / not ground Mum, even the Bonzai collecting frat are at odds over it.

Some people say that the US did the grinding per General Mac's orders, others that there was a command directive from the Japanese high command to not have any captured rifles with intact mums be allowed.

So??????

Stevie, ammo is expensive and has been for years, every now and then you see some at gunshows, there was a box at the Reno show I just happened to see... But buy a couple of boxes of Norma, then reload, that is the way to go.

BTW, I have some stripper clips of five rounds that is all rusty and gross, supposed to have been found in a cave in the islands, years after WW2. Makes a nice tale and collector addition.

Ed

[RockinWR]

Stevie,
* Google up "Midway" or "Ye Ole Scrounger". I think I recall from a Gun List or Shotgun News listing that one or both carry 7.7mm ammo. Midway may carry just the brass for Reloading....but, either ought to be cheaper than Cabelas/Norma new ammo.
Bob

[Jim Keenan]

There is no question that U.S. occupying forces allowed Japanese depot workers to grind off the crest prior to formally surrendering the weapons. This was in accordance with MacArthur's desire not to offend the Emperor, whose personal symbol the "mum" was (and is).

As to stories of army personnel in the middle of battle grinding crests off captured weapons, I must, with all due respect, digest a large grain of salt. As to the other story that Japanese soldiers preparing for a battle they knew they would lose, spent a lot of time grinding off crests. That takes a whole salt block.

And why? In the middle of the war, no one was worrying about the Emperor's honor or the honor of any Japanese. The only good Japanese was a dead one, from the Emperor on down.

Weapons taken from field depots after the surrender would probably have been treated the same as weapons taken from homeland depots, so rifles sent back from Okinawa may very well have been "ground". It is also possible that weapons scavenged after the surrender would have been ground in accordance with Mac's directive. But those weapons would not have been captured in battle or picked in the middle of combat.

Jim

[Edward Tinker]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Jim Keenan:
<strong>There is no question that U.S. occupying forces allowed Japanese depot workers to grind off the crest prior to formally surrendering the weapons. This was in accordance with MacArthur's desire not to offend the Emperor, whose personal symbol the "mum" was (and is).

As to stories of army personnel in the middle of battle grinding crests off captured weapons...</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Jim, who said anything about grinding off during battle? Where is that from?

The first part about Mac not trying to offend the Emperor is what I believe also, but the Bonzai people (Japanese collectors) do not agree on this either, so it is kind of up in the air as to who or why the mums were ground. <img border="0" alt="[king]" title="" src="graemlins/r.gif" />

Ed

[Sieger]

Doug really balled-up the treaty with the Japanese, stupid crest grinding and all!!

We are still over there, 50 plus years later "protecting them", while they have been over here for the last 30 taking much of our industrial base away.

Well, the Arisaka T-38 is my favorite rifle, notwithstanding the under powered little 6.5x50SR cartridge.

Nambu was a brilliant man, and simplified the Mauser bolt system by copying the internal firing pin of the Luger Pistol. Yes, he copied the Luger's firing system in his design!!!

Sieger

[Jim Keenan]

Hi, Sieger,

I don't know whether you are referring to the Nambu pistol or the Arisaka rifle as copying the Luger firing pin, but both do in a way. Straight drive strikers did not originate with Luger, though. Not only the Borchardt but several earlier pistols and, of course, rifles, used them. Even the internal mainspring (vs. the external Mauser type) was not original to the Borchardt, but it is more expensive to make.

The interesting part about the Arisaka is that the bolt is (AFAIK) the simplest ever made, having only 6 parts, including the safety.

Ed, believe it or not, those were theories put forth on at least one web site. The second was apparently believed because the poster's father or uncle claimed to have taken the rifle away from a Japanese soldier in hand-to-hand combat, and it was ground! So the Jap must have done it, as the father/uncle would never stretch the truth!

(My experience was that WWII vets may well have been heros and we owe them a debt, but they were, as a group, the biggest liars in the world.)

Jim

[Edward Tinker]

and Jim, it was a loooong time ago.

I find it interesting, so many people will know their uncle or dad was in WW2, and he has a Luger or T-14 and they assume it was brought back by them. Good chance it was, also, hey that was 50, almost 60 years ago, good chance Dad bought it in 1953 through the mail...

Ed

[John -Melb]

I think I might have fond a solution to the Chrysanthemum question.

According to M Murray’s book “Hunted” a group of 10 Americans and 6 Australian Z Force operatives (2 Australian, 4 Natives) were landed on the island of Boang Island on the 29th December 1943, from the USS Peto.

During this operation it was necessary to cause some considerable mischief to a party of Japanese soldiers who got a little to close for comfort. Among the souvenirs brought back to the Peto was a pistol and a machine gun. According to Murray

“ The captured machine gun was presented to the crew of the Peto by Murray for the gallant part they had played in the rescue of the team; the Japanese officer’s pistol he gave to Commander Nelson as a personal souvenir. The crew made immediate arrangements to have the machine gun sent back to America to the ship-building company where Peto had been built; it still occupies a place of honour in a glass showcase in the lobby of the administration building.”

If this gun still exists, and bears the Chrysanthemum, it is a clear example of Japanese weapons being brought back prior to the cessation of hostilities without having the Chrysanthemum removed.

Anyone know where this gun might be today? I suspect it will be a Japanese Type 96 LMG.

[John -Melb]

Further to my last, the Peto was bult by the Manitowoc Shipbuilding Co., Manitowoc, WI,

Anybody know anything about this company?

[Jim Keenan]

Hi, Ed,

I have written about this before, but will do so one more time.

The son of a deceased WWII vet and friend told me that he had his father's M1 rifle which had been given to him by General Patton personnally after the Battle of the Bulge. The problem was that I knew the father before the son did, knew that he had never been out of the states, and I was with him when he picked up the DCM M1 at the Railway Express office.

I did not tell the son the truth.

Jim

[Stevie]

I looked at my fatherinlaws Arisaka this last weekend(I could have sworn it was a 6.5mm T38, but it's a T99 earlier type, monopod, aircraft ears on the sight). His rifles mum is unground, perfect and beatiful. His father was the Provost Marshal on Guam after the war,and this rifle was found in a crate inside a cave after the war. supposidly the crated rifles were packed in ten yen notes! I think we've narrowed the mum grinders down to either the Japs or the Yanks on captured rifles after the war. I still don't understand why.

I've got the Emperors Arisaka sitting with a barrle full of penetrating oil(I think it's going to be ok). I thought these were supposed to have chrome lined bores, but this mid war Nagoya rifle doesn't appear chromed. This is probably what they call a transitional rifle, made approx. 1943.