East German Luger

[Michael Zeleny]

http://www.egun.de/market/item.php?id=3393554

[G.T.]

Cut for a sear safety... wonder why?? When it looks as if they skipped as many other steps as practical?? (lanyard loop, grip lines on the toggle, polish, etc..) Still, a real neat variation... best to all, til...lat'r...GT

[Michael Zeleny]

It's a lot slicker than the Trabant Parabellum I've been led to expect. Any guesses as to how much it would fetch?

[Edward Tinker]

most of these have come on the market and very few know what they are here in the USA

There is a vopo on gunbroker right now with an east german made frame.

Ed

[Lugerdoc]

GT et al, The all new production DDR lugers (in the N prefix 1000 to 1150 range are quite scare and should fetch $1500+ even with importer markings. I have purchased several stashes of DDR PO8 parts and all of the trigger bars (sears) were drilled for the sear safety. I also have a good supply of NOS DDR rear toggle links. Your choice @$50 each + S&H or one of each @$90 postpaid. TH

[Vlim]

Nice gun, but way too expensive. The 4000 Euro asking price is about 3000 too much.

[swissdagger]

A real part of the Luger history...and a way better made as the Mauser junk from the seventies and eighties.
A glossy finish is not all.

[hansfischer007]

Hey ..watch it with the "mauser junk from the 70s and 80s".....I still love mine.!!.......sent it off to Luger Doc yesterday for his Magic Fingers to do a tune up.........and Im sure it will be fine.......as he "cured' my 1918 DWM that had a few problems.....We all have our own little niche that we like to collect............and some of us like me.....Retired Army Sgt. after 26 years.....just dont have the $4,000 bucks for the high end items...

[Vlim]

Swissdagger. It's time to read our book

[Michael Zeleny]

Gerben, does your book dispute common knowledge that Mauser Parabellums were built out of loosely fitted, porous castings and fed out of dysfunctional Dutch magazines? If not, I would have to agree with Stefan in valuing the build quality of Vopo guns much higher.

[hansfischer007]

....I dont consider myself an "expert" on the Interarms Mauser since I have only purchased one to date.....however I seriously doubt that Sam Cummings of Interarms....with his vast experience and knowledge of firearms of all types.........would have invested untold millions in the Mauser Lugers.......if "common knowledge" had informed him they were made of loosely fitted-porous castings-dysfuntional dutch magazines........Since I started reading this Forum months ago....I have noted quite a number of Forum Members that have purchased the Interarms Mausers and have been totally satisfied with them..........I cant agree with "common knowledge"......by the way.....who originates this common knowledge anyway..?...thats right up there with getting a copy of the "Big picture" and meeting "They"

[Vlim]

Michael, we indeed discuss the quality issues that the Dutch magazines had initially. We also discuss the use of castings for many of the small parts and the rear parts of the toggle assembly, as well as the use of sintering to produce the firing pin.

I don't know were you got the 'loosely fitting' and 'porous casting' ideas from. I expect it is lack of knowledge of the subject. Again, I recommend reading the book.

[Michael Zeleny]

Originally Posted by Vlim

I don't know were you got the 'loosely fitting' and 'porous casting' ideas from.

Personal experience with the product, witnessing no end of loose sideplates and casting voids poking through glossy polish.

[Vlim]

I would love to see an example of such a 'casting void'.

The challenge was to create a version of the Parabellum pistol at an affordable price. This was only possible by changing a number of production steps, eliminating those that had no particular advantage and doing away with the hand fitting of parts before blueing.

By taking these steps Mauser was able to do in the 1970s whas neither Loewe, DWM nor Bern ever accomplished.

DWM's successor IWK made the toggle parts. The pistol utilized design changes from Bern. August Weiss provided his input, Ludwig Vorgrimler was responsible for the R&D work and the spring setup was designed by one of the best spring engineers in Germany.

Is your Sports version for sale yet, or are you going to hang on to that piece of worthless engineering?

[swissdagger]

Originally Posted by hansfischer007

Hey ..watch it with the "mauser junk from the 70s and 80s".....I still love mine.!!.......sent it off to Luger Doc yesterday for his Magic Fingers to do a tune up.........and Im sure it will be fine.......as he "cured' my 1918 DWM that had a few problems.....We all have our own little niche that we like to collect............and some of us like me.....Retired Army Sgt. after 26 years.....just dont have the $4,000 bucks for the high end items...

You can collect what ever you want but a cheap,mismatched VOPO Luger is always a better shooter and a more valuable collector piece as one of the new Mausers from the seventies and eighties or a Mitchell Arms Luger.
After 25 years in the gun business I know if I see junk, for that I have not to read any books.
In the last years I sold maybe 20 or 30 of such new made Mausers.
High glossy polished junk is still junk.
Sorry, my english is still not the best......

[Wilhelm]

Ludwig Vorgrimler was the chief STG45 and Cetme guy wasn't he?

[silverknife]

Originally Posted by swissdagger

You can collect what ever you want but
a cheap,mismatched VOPO Luger is always a better shooter and a more valuable collector piece as one of the new Mausers from the seventies and eighties or a Mitchell Arms Luger.
After 25 years in the gun business I know if I see junk,
for that I have not to read any books.
In the last years I sold maybe 20 or 30 of such new made Mausers.
High glossy polished junk is still junk.
Sorry, my english is still not the best......

25 years in the gun business is a long time and certainly long enough to form an opinion on what constitutes junk and what does not. However, my Interarms .30 Luger, which I shoot on a regular basis, falls quite a distance above "junk" on my quality scale of production firearms even though the oversized and too sharply checkered grips had to be reworked to make the gun more comfortable to shoot. Got my first long gun in 1950 and my first handgun in 1962.

Regards,
Doug

[Vlim]

Ludwig Vorgrimler was the chief STG45 and Cetme guy wasn't he?

Yes, he was. Interestingly enough, while he was working for Mauser in the 1970s, their neigbors Heckler & Koch were producing the G3 rifle, based on his design.

Price wise, the Mauser Parabellum is still a bit more expensive than a VoPo, although it is still possible to find very good deals on both of them. They both have their merits and from a collector stand point they are starting to get past a 'shooter' state. When going for a Mauser Parabellum, go for a boxed version with all the accessories and paper work.

I wonder if the Mitchel/Aimco/Orimar stainless steel versions will become popular collectables.

[Michael Zeleny]

Gerben, my Mauser Parabellums have found more appreciative owners. I didn't win the Sports version on eGun, but other specimens pop up there from time to time.

I understand Sam Cummings' challenge to create a version of the Parabellum pistol at an affordable price. As far as I am concerned, this was a fool's errand. Cast and molded parts wreak havoc on precise actions, as witness the degradation of SIG P210 pistols after the expiration of Swiss military contracts. If anything, the Luger action requires much greater precision of manufacture. I know of no service grade Luger that has interchangeable parts. I heard the claim of doing away with the hand fitting of parts before blueing made on behalf of Krieghoff, but their interchangeability is not borne out by numerous original specimens in my collection. By contrast, Swiss P49 pistols suffer no degradation in accuracy or reliability in mixing and matching major subassemblies. Attempting to make a Luger to this standard is a recipe for disappointment. The Swiss seem to have gone as far as reasonably possible in their quest for "rationalizing" the Borchardt-Luger design, as witness the 1965 prototype pictured on pp. 276-277 of Horst Rutsch's book. Regrettably, Mauser engineers chose to do it their way. Predictably, mediocrity ensued.

[Vlim]

Michael, it's not too bad. Mauser figured out that only 1 part needed hand fitting before blueing, and numbered these parts (rear toggle part only) in order to assemble them on the right pistols. The serial number is electropencilled on the bottom of the rear toggle as a result.

An exception are the pistols that were factory chromed (matte hardcrome plating). Because of different tolerances (adding a layer of chrome plating), these parts were numbered to the gun (only those essential to function properly).

So you can do one, and still have the other. The 1965 prototype (basically an 06/29 without grip safety) was sold to Mauser together with the plans and some sample guns. It ended up in Prof. Dr. Rolf Gminder's collection, and has moved on since. We used photos of the pistol that came from Gminder's archive for our book.

I think the Mauser engineers, and the companies involved, deserve a little more respect. The main reason that it wasn't popular in Switzerland was because of other, economical, issues. But that is another story