1916 Erfurt question...

thegundude · 06-16-2005, 01:50 PM

I'm looking at a 1916 Erfurt that the owner claims is original finish. It looks fairly good, but the trigger, take-down lever et al are blued, not strawed.

I'm under the impression that prior to ninteen thirty something they were all strawed. Am I wrong or is this guy BSing me?

Thanks,

John Sabato · 06-16-2005, 01:58 PM

The ORIGINAL finish for this gun would have included strawed small parts including the ones that you mentioned...

It may have been "arsenal" refinished after 1937 and ended up with these parts being blued... or it just may have been reblued before the present owner received it...

regardless... it is NOT the ORIGINAL finish...

bid on it appropriately based on that...

Good luck, and if you buy it, make sure you post photos... in fact, if you can get good photos before you plunk down your hard earned cash, do that and others can pass judgement on your potential acquisition...

thegundude · 06-16-2005, 02:07 PM

Thanks John. I thought it would have been strawed to begin with.

I'll try to get some pics, but I doubt I'm going to offer him anything for it. I'd really rather have at least one all original, 90%+ condition Luger and I don't currently have an Erfurt. I'll just keep looking...

Again, thanks for the prompt reply John.

George Anderson · 06-16-2005, 03:27 PM

By 1916, Erfurt's P08 finish was pretty rough. Given that, John is correct, the smalls were strawed.

thegundude · 06-16-2005, 04:22 PM

Oh well, that's another thing then. It's kinda nicely blued. Maybe he'll take $600 for it. It's clearly a reblue...

Would it be worth $600? It's about 90% but, as I said, the strawed parts aren't strawed. But I'm sure Thor could fix that... The bore is represented as bright and it's all matching. Sorry, but I can't get any pictures of it right now...

Walt NW · 06-18-2005, 11:21 AM

John,
Learn something new everyday, which in my case, can take a long, long time. Did not realize that weapons "arsenal" refinished after 1937 could end up with a complete re-blue. This being the case, would the arsenal involved have added a marking of any kind either to the gun in general or to any parts they replaced at the time?

Edward Tinker · 06-18-2005, 11:28 AM

Walt, I don't beleive that is true, if rearsenaled, they were rearsenalled at the period of the time, but if the parts were supposed to be strawed, I don't beleive they were ever blued over....

Dwight Gruber · 06-18-2005, 04:50 PM

Walt,

The term "arsenal refinish" gets thrown around pretty casually, and there is no single, useful meaning for the generality.

Lugers were reworked--very often had parts replaced, sometimes were partly or completely refinished--by Simson and Krieghoff. Sometimes reworking was done by independent gunsmith shops--Von Nordheim (VoNo) and Frankenschloss come to mind, there may be others (Anschutz, e.g.).

Lugers were also stored, maintained, and repaired at Heeres Zeugamter (Army Weapons Depots). It is not clear to me where Police Lugers were modified, although many of them were rebarrelled at the Berlin police armory.

But, there were no anonymous "armories" to "refinish" Lugers; there is almost always evidence of the source of the work. Sometimes it is inspector stamps on a replacement part, Eagle/6 in the case of Simson, or an eagle over HZA stamp in the case of the Heeres Zeugamter. Berlin Armory barrrels are stamped with some combinaton of TP/eagle (this is often referred to as the mark of the Technical Police). German liability law required that reworked weapons having major changes to frame, receiver, or breechblock bear the identification of the party responsible for the work, hence the VoNo and Frankenschloss stamps, Simson toggles, and rear-frame Krieghoff stamps. Recently there has come to light evidence which supports the theory that Kl chamber stamp Lugers are the rework identification of Werkstatt Klett.

The above information does not apply to Swiss Lugers, whose refinishing is a separate subject unto itself. Nor does it apply to East German, Russian, Dutch, or Finnish practice.

Essentially, any time someone claims that a Luger has been "arsenal refinished", without any of the supporting evidence in steel, it is a fantasy excuse for the gun being refinished by an unknown technician at an indeterminate time. This is doubly true if it is an explanation for strawed parts being blued.

--Dwight

Paul L · 06-18-2005, 05:56 PM

Dwight,

very well said sir and your last paragraph spot on to the concept .......of "arsenal rework"

Regards, Paul

Walt NW · 06-18-2005, 07:21 PM

Dwight,

Many thanks. That certainly brings a grand finale to the question of "arsenal" rework claims.

jamese · 06-19-2005, 08:55 AM

Dwight,
Very goood info
thanks

Jim

Tomathvl · 06-19-2005, 12:34 PM

Dwight,
As usual, very informative and well written.
You mention evidence of kl markings being the ID of rework of Werkstatt Klett. Is that info available on the forum and if so, where.
Thanks,
Tom

Dwight Gruber · 06-19-2005, 03:32 PM

Tom,

The Werkstatt Klett theory was published in the Nov. 2003 issue of AutoMag, p. 182. Authors Jim Cate and Nico VanGijn. Its a very interesting article and has lots of good information.

--Dwight

John Sabato · 08-23-2005, 12:42 PM

Mike Morris has just forwarded two scans of WW2 Himmler documentation were "KL" is mentioned...

Here is the content that accompanied the images below:

Quote:

John........ I uploaded several scans yesterday on some possible meaning of KL. I was going through some correspondence from Himmler and I ran across his mentioning KL in a letter. It was the service background of a man who Himmler was transmitting. KL appears at the beginning of a paragraph like a work station or place.

This scan was the worst of the three... but I included it for the humor aspect...

MauserLugers · 08-23-2005, 01:35 PM

Hi Dwight,
On some of the G-Dat Police Lugers, as well as a few of the Weimar Police Lugers, the notch for the magazine safety was filled in on the side of the frame. On these Lugers the frame was reblued and the inside of the Luger will be blue'd instead of the normal polished (white). There are no refurbish stamps on these to my knowledge. They still retain the sear safety. The only way you know this was done to these is the hole is still present behind the trigger and the inside of the lower frame is blue instead of the normal polished appearance. So, I know I've talked with people that see the blue inside and immediately say the gun has been recently reblued, which is not correct. -- Bill

Dwight Gruber · 08-23-2005, 01:45 PM

Bill,

Thanks for that useful caveat. In your experience with these guns, are the strawed parts blued as well?

--Dwight

MauserLugers · 08-23-2005, 06:25 PM

Usually the strawed parts remain strawed. There are bound to be a few exceptions, but normally the straw is not messed with. -- Bill

06-16-2005, 01:50 PM	#1
thegundude User Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Western NC Posts: 1,137 Thanks: 3 Thanked 16 Times in 3 Posts	1916 Erfurt question... I'm looking at a 1916 Erfurt that the owner claims is original finish. It looks fairly good, but the trigger, take-down lever et al are blued, not strawed. I'm under the impression that prior to ninteen thirty something they were all strawed. Am I wrong or is this guy BSing me? Thanks, __________________ Keep your knees in the breeze and your iron in the air. ~Steve

06-16-2005, 01:58 PM	#2
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	The ORIGINAL finish for this gun would have included strawed small parts including the ones that you mentioned... It may have been "arsenal" refinished after 1937 and ended up with these parts being blued... or it just may have been reblued before the present owner received it... regardless... it is NOT the ORIGINAL finish... bid on it appropriately based on that... Good luck, and if you buy it, make sure you post photos... in fact, if you can get good photos before you plunk down your hard earned cash, do that and others can pass judgement on your potential acquisition... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

06-16-2005, 02:07 PM	#3
thegundude User Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Western NC Posts: 1,137 Thanks: 3 Thanked 16 Times in 3 Posts	Thanks John. I thought it would have been strawed to begin with. I'll try to get some pics, but I doubt I'm going to offer him anything for it. I'd really rather have at least one all original, 90%+ condition Luger and I don't currently have an Erfurt. I'll just keep looking... Again, thanks for the prompt reply John. __________________ Keep your knees in the breeze and your iron in the air. ~Steve

06-16-2005, 04:22 PM	#5
thegundude User Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Western NC Posts: 1,137 Thanks: 3 Thanked 16 Times in 3 Posts	Oh well, that's another thing then. It's kinda nicely blued. Maybe he'll take $600 for it. It's clearly a reblue... Would it be worth $600? It's about 90% but, as I said, the strawed parts aren't strawed. But I'm sure Thor could fix that... The bore is represented as bright and it's all matching. Sorry, but I can't get any pictures of it right now... __________________ Keep your knees in the breeze and your iron in the air. ~Steve

06-18-2005, 11:28 AM	#7
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,911 Thanks: 1,987 Thanked 4,502 Times in 2,077 Posts	Walt, I don't beleive that is true, if rearsenaled, they were rearsenalled at the period of the time, but if the parts were supposed to be strawed, I don't beleive they were ever blued over.... __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

06-16-2005, 03:27 PM	#4
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,772 Thanked 2,527 Times in 786 Posts	By 1916, Erfurt's P08 finish was pretty rough. Given that, John is correct, the smalls were strawed.

06-18-2005, 11:21 AM	#6
Walt NW User Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: New Caney, Texas Posts: 90 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	John, Learn something new everyday, which in my case, can take a long, long time. Did not realize that weapons "arsenal" refinished after 1937 could end up with a complete re-blue. This being the case, would the arsenal involved have added a marking of any kind either to the gun in general or to any parts they replaced at the time?

06-18-2005, 04:50 PM	#8
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,890 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,282 Times in 424 Posts	Walt, The term "arsenal refinish" gets thrown around pretty casually, and there is no single, useful meaning for the generality. Lugers were reworked--very often had parts replaced, sometimes were partly or completely refinished--by Simson and Krieghoff. Sometimes reworking was done by independent gunsmith shops--Von Nordheim (VoNo) and Frankenschloss come to mind, there may be others (Anschutz, e.g.). Lugers were also stored, maintained, and repaired at Heeres Zeugamter (Army Weapons Depots). It is not clear to me where Police Lugers were modified, although many of them were rebarrelled at the Berlin police armory. But, there were no anonymous "armories" to "refinish" Lugers; there is almost always evidence of the source of the work. Sometimes it is inspector stamps on a replacement part, Eagle/6 in the case of Simson, or an eagle over HZA stamp in the case of the Heeres Zeugamter. Berlin Armory barrrels are stamped with some combinaton of TP/eagle (this is often referred to as the mark of the Technical Police). German liability law required that reworked weapons having major changes to frame, receiver, or breechblock bear the identification of the party responsible for the work, hence the VoNo and Frankenschloss stamps, Simson toggles, and rear-frame Krieghoff stamps. Recently there has come to light evidence which supports the theory that Kl chamber stamp Lugers are the rework identification of Werkstatt Klett. The above information does not apply to Swiss Lugers, whose refinishing is a separate subject unto itself. Nor does it apply to East German, Russian, Dutch, or Finnish practice. Essentially, any time someone claims that a Luger has been "arsenal refinished", without any of the supporting evidence in steel, it is a fantasy excuse for the gun being refinished by an unknown technician at an indeterminate time. This is doubly true if it is an explanation for strawed parts being blued. --Dwight

06-18-2005, 05:56 PM	#9
Paul L User Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Monroe County, SE Mich. Posts: 76 Thanks: 5 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	Dwight, very well said sir and your last paragraph spot on to the concept .......of "arsenal rework" Regards, Paul

06-18-2005, 07:21 PM	#10
Walt NW User Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: New Caney, Texas Posts: 90 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Dwight, Many thanks. That certainly brings a grand finale to the question of "arsenal" rework claims.

06-19-2005, 08:55 AM	#11
jamese User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: South Florida Posts: 789 Thanks: 0 Thanked 84 Times in 34 Posts	Dwight, Very goood info thanks Jim __________________ The "truth" is a matter of Perception

06-19-2005, 12:34 PM	#12
Tomathvl User Join Date: May 2004 Location: Milan, IN Posts: 363 Thanks: 3 Thanked 48 Times in 19 Posts	Dwight, As usual, very informative and well written. You mention evidence of kl markings being the ID of rework of Werkstatt Klett. Is that info available on the forum and if so, where. Thanks, Tom

06-19-2005, 03:32 PM	#13
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,890 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,282 Times in 424 Posts	Tom, The Werkstatt Klett theory was published in the Nov. 2003 issue of AutoMag, p. 182. Authors Jim Cate and Nico VanGijn. Its a very interesting article and has lots of good information. --Dwight

08-23-2005, 01:35 PM	#15
MauserLugers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Philipsburg, Montana 59858 Posts: 250 Thanks: 0 Thanked 8 Times in 1 Post	Hi Dwight, On some of the G-Dat Police Lugers, as well as a few of the Weimar Police Lugers, the notch for the magazine safety was filled in on the side of the frame. On these Lugers the frame was reblued and the inside of the Luger will be blue'd instead of the normal polished (white). There are no refurbish stamps on these to my knowledge. They still retain the sear safety. The only way you know this was done to these is the hole is still present behind the trigger and the inside of the lower frame is blue instead of the normal polished appearance. So, I know I've talked with people that see the blue inside and immediately say the gun has been recently reblued, which is not correct. -- Bill

08-23-2005, 01:45 PM	#16
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,890 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,282 Times in 424 Posts	Bill, Thanks for that useful caveat. In your experience with these guns, are the strawed parts blued as well? --Dwight

08-23-2005, 06:25 PM	#17
MauserLugers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Philipsburg, Montana 59858 Posts: 250 Thanks: 0 Thanked 8 Times in 1 Post	Usually the strawed parts remain strawed. There are bound to be a few exceptions, but normally the straw is not messed with. -- Bill