Need infor from a unit mark

LU1900 · 06-26-2007, 09:33 AM

.........

Ron Wood · 06-26-2007, 10:35 AM

The BG marking is a bit of a puzzle. It looks like it might be a Bavarian Garde unit but I'm not sure what the II.2. indicates. On a holster a Roman II indicates a Bavarian Corps, but I don't know about Lugers.
The other one is easy, Fortress Machine Gun Detachment 9, Weapon #12.

It is odd to see a Luger marked with two entirely different units without having one of them X'd out.

Ron Smith · 06-26-2007, 10:38 AM

Hi Pat,

F.M.G.A.9.12. = Festungs Machinengewehr Abteilung 9 waffen 12 or Fortress Machine Gun Detachment 9 weapon 12.

B.G.II.2. = Bavarian Garde Battalion II, or II Corps. 2nd company

My thoughts are that the F.M.G.A.9.12. marking was a pre-war or early war unit mark. As it is stamped on the front grip strap according to regulation.

The B.G.II.2 marking was a re-issue mark applied later on when the Fortress MG detatchment was absorbed into an infantry unit. And the F.M.G. mark was not cancelled.

Just speculation on my part. Maybe someone else has a different thought or translation of the marks.

Ron

Ron Wood · 06-26-2007, 10:39 AM

Holy smokes! I never beat Ron to the draw! I had better go buy a lottery ticket.

Ron Smith · 06-26-2007, 10:42 AM

Ron,

I had to take a nap. I was thinking again...

Ron

LU1900 · 06-26-2007, 12:11 PM

.........

George Anderson · 06-26-2007, 04:13 PM

Patrice, just to stir the pudding a bit I will offer a couple of observations. Since the earlier marking (Festungs Maschinegewehr...) is an Imperial army marking and not Bavarian I would figure that the weapon remained within the same military formation. You might want to check and see if it has a hold-open added.

If it remained in the Imperial army system then I would venture a guess that the backstrap marking is "General-Kommando des 2. Armeekorps, etc". I do not think that the Bavarians fielded a Garde Korps. They did have a Leib Regiment in the first Bavarian Corps.

Keep in mind that my idea is just a guess. The Festungs MG unit started out the war in Alsace. The II Korps started out in 1914 in Pomerania. I don't know where either ended up or whether they crossed paths at some time during the war. When I have more time and can get to my library I may be able to track them.

A very cool pistol.

Ron Smith · 06-26-2007, 08:58 PM

Geo,

You're right again, as much as I hate to admit it. ;-)

I was checking Cron's Imperial German Army ,and thought that I found a Bavarian Garde unit reference. Just checked again and had run two lines together. Bavarian I Korps on one line, and a Prussian Garde unit on the line below.

However, I thought that General-Komandos were in relation to Garde Korps units only? Am I wrong about this also?

Thanks...

Ron

Ron Wood · 06-26-2007, 11:00 PM

What about Grenadier? (Grasping at straws mode on)

Ron Smith · 06-26-2007, 11:47 PM

I found something interesting in Jeff Noll's book. He has listed a unit marking. B.F.G. III.36. translated as Bavarian Army Corps III Field Gendarmerie weapon 36.

I assume this would be a Military police unit?

Ron

Dwight Gruber · 06-27-2007, 01:43 AM

Feld-Gendarmerie (Feldgendermarie) is indeed Military Police.

--Dwight

Ron Wood · 06-27-2007, 01:47 AM

I don't think it would be a Military Police unit in the sense that we usually associate with MPs. I think of MPs as garrison police having authority over military personnel, and civilians within a military jurisdiction. The Gendarmarie to me was more like a rural constabulary with government sanction that ranged beyond military bases, a sort of paramilitary organization with general police powers. This is just a guess based on the term "gendarmarie" and the connotation it carries. Somebody that knows what they are talking about please step in here and stop me if I am dead wrong.

Dwight Gruber · 06-27-2007, 11:53 AM

Ron,

I've been exploring this topic recently, and this is what I have come to understand.

The German police forces were based on the French "Gendarmarie" system, hence the 'foreign' word. The rural constabulary which you mention--the landes gendarmerie, if you will--became the LandjÃ?Â¤gerei after the Treaty of Versaillles and the IMKK.

The Feldgendarmerie was the gendarmerie within the Army organization. I don't know if their duties were directly analogous to those we understand of the MP.

As a barracked, paramilitary force, the civil gendarmerie was at times conscripted into the Army to serve as Feldgendarmerie. This was in the Imperial era before WWI.

And if anyone can focus the discussion even further I'd appreciate knowing.

--Dwight

06-26-2007, 10:35 AM	#2
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,986 Thanks: 1,065 Thanked 5,088 Times in 1,674 Posts	The BG marking is a bit of a puzzle. It looks like it might be a Bavarian Garde unit but I'm not sure what the II.2. indicates. On a holster a Roman II indicates a Bavarian Corps, but I don't know about Lugers. The other one is easy, Fortress Machine Gun Detachment 9, Weapon #12. It is odd to see a Luger marked with two entirely different units without having one of them X'd out. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

06-26-2007, 10:38 AM	#3
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	Hi Pat, F.M.G.A.9.12. = Festungs Machinengewehr Abteilung 9 waffen 12 or Fortress Machine Gun Detachment 9 weapon 12. B.G.II.2. = Bavarian Garde Battalion II, or II Corps. 2nd company My thoughts are that the F.M.G.A.9.12. marking was a pre-war or early war unit mark. As it is stamped on the front grip strap according to regulation. The B.G.II.2 marking was a re-issue mark applied later on when the Fortress MG detatchment was absorbed into an infantry unit. And the F.M.G. mark was not cancelled. Just speculation on my part. Maybe someone else has a different thought or translation of the marks. Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

06-26-2007, 10:39 AM	#4
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,986 Thanks: 1,065 Thanked 5,088 Times in 1,674 Posts	Holy smokes! I never beat Ron to the draw! I had better go buy a lottery ticket. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

06-26-2007, 10:42 AM	#5
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	Ron, I had to take a nap. I was thinking again... Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

06-26-2007, 12:11 PM	#6
LU1900 User Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: FRANCE Posts: 900 Thanks: 35 Thanked 461 Times in 193 Posts	......... __________________ Best regards from France...Patrice https://www.fichier-pdf.fr/2016/03/1...nd-snail-drum/

06-26-2007, 09:33 AM	#1
LU1900 User Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: FRANCE Posts: 900 Thanks: 35 Thanked 461 Times in 193 Posts	Need infor from a unit mark ......... __________________ Best regards from France...Patrice https://www.fichier-pdf.fr/2016/03/1...nd-snail-drum/

06-26-2007, 04:13 PM	#7
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,769 Thanked 2,527 Times in 786 Posts	Patrice, just to stir the pudding a bit I will offer a couple of observations. Since the earlier marking (Festungs Maschinegewehr...) is an Imperial army marking and not Bavarian I would figure that the weapon remained within the same military formation. You might want to check and see if it has a hold-open added. If it remained in the Imperial army system then I would venture a guess that the backstrap marking is "General-Kommando des 2. Armeekorps, etc". I do not think that the Bavarians fielded a Garde Korps. They did have a Leib Regiment in the first Bavarian Corps. Keep in mind that my idea is just a guess. The Festungs MG unit started out the war in Alsace. The II Korps started out in 1914 in Pomerania. I don't know where either ended up or whether they crossed paths at some time during the war. When I have more time and can get to my library I may be able to track them. A very cool pistol.

06-26-2007, 08:58 PM	#8
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	Geo, You're right again, as much as I hate to admit it. ;-) I was checking Cron's Imperial German Army ,and thought that I found a Bavarian Garde unit reference. Just checked again and had run two lines together. Bavarian I Korps on one line, and a Prussian Garde unit on the line below. However, I thought that General-Komandos were in relation to Garde Korps units only? Am I wrong about this also? Thanks... Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

06-26-2007, 11:00 PM	#9
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,986 Thanks: 1,065 Thanked 5,088 Times in 1,674 Posts	What about Grenadier? (Grasping at straws mode on) __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

06-26-2007, 11:47 PM	#10
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	I found something interesting in Jeff Noll's book. He has listed a unit marking. B.F.G. III.36. translated as Bavarian Army Corps III Field Gendarmerie weapon 36. I assume this would be a Military police unit? Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

06-27-2007, 01:43 AM	#11
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,889 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,281 Times in 423 Posts	Feld-Gendarmerie (Feldgendermarie) is indeed Military Police. --Dwight

06-27-2007, 01:47 AM	#12
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,986 Thanks: 1,065 Thanked 5,088 Times in 1,674 Posts	I don't think it would be a Military Police unit in the sense that we usually associate with MPs. I think of MPs as garrison police having authority over military personnel, and civilians within a military jurisdiction. The Gendarmarie to me was more like a rural constabulary with government sanction that ranged beyond military bases, a sort of paramilitary organization with general police powers. This is just a guess based on the term "gendarmarie" and the connotation it carries. Somebody that knows what they are talking about please step in here and stop me if I am dead wrong. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

06-27-2007, 11:53 AM	#13
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,889 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,281 Times in 423 Posts	Ron, I've been exploring this topic recently, and this is what I have come to understand. The German police forces were based on the French "Gendarmarie" system, hence the 'foreign' word. The rural constabulary which you mention--the landes gendarmerie, if you will--became the LandjÃ?Â¤gerei after the Treaty of Versaillles and the IMKK. The Feldgendarmerie was the gendarmerie within the Army organization. I don't know if their duties were directly analogous to those we understand of the MP. As a barracked, paramilitary force, the civil gendarmerie was at times conscripted into the Army to serve as Feldgendarmerie. This was in the Imperial era before WWI. And if anyone can focus the discussion even further I'd appreciate knowing. --Dwight