DWM 1918 unit markings

BBB · 01-02-2007, 04:30 PM

I have a DWM 1918 P.08, sn#352. The unit marking reads Ã¢??L.I.R.387.Ã¢?Â

My first thought was that it would be for Landwehr Infantry Regiment 387, but I know that this regiment was transferred to the Eastern Front at the end of 1917 for the duration of the war, making it unlikely that it was brought to the USA as a souvenir (I suspect that is how it got here but I donÃ¢??t know for sure).

IÃ¢??ve also looked into Ã¢??Lehr Infantry Regiment, weapon #387Ã¢?Â. I know this regiment was part of the 3rd Guards Division for the entire war and they DID face Americans in 1918.

Additionally, IÃ¢??ve considered the Leib (Lifguard) Regiment, but I havenÃ¢??t been able to determine if they ever faced Americans.

As for the markings themselves, they are of a different font than that which seems to be typical of Imperial marked lugers, especially the Ã¢??RÃ¢?Â and the straight-topped Ã¢??3Ã¢?Â.

Could these be post-war/Wiemar period markings?

There does not seem to be much difference in the height of the letters and numbers, which seems to by the standard for Imperial unit marked lugers.

Lastly, are these markings fake?

I think the wear on the grip strap, as well as the scattered spots of darkening (rust?) that covers the strap and surrounds the unit marks seems to be consistent. So I donÃ¢??t think they are fake, but I would like to hear from others.

I appreciate any help. Thanks, Chad

BBB · 01-02-2007, 04:31 PM

Here's a straight on shot.

Brent B. · 01-02-2007, 04:39 PM

My first thought is that it's a police marking but I'm not sure. Hopefully one of the other fellows will be able to give an exact ID on it. Brent B.

Lyn Islaub · 01-02-2007, 10:28 PM

This pistol was the subject of discussion on the Wehrmacht Awards Forum a month or so ago. At that time, I had identified the marking as Landwehr Infanterie Regiment 387 per page 95 in Jeff Noll's "Imperial German Regimental Marking" book. I received some pushback from a couple of the Forum members who believed that Noll was mistaken in his identification of this marking, so it will be interesting to see some input from members of this Forum that have more extensive knowledge of Imperial unit markings than I do.
Lyn

BBB · 01-03-2007, 06:11 AM

This is the same pistol Lyn.

I had pretty much decided on the Landwehr idea just based on what was on the pistol. Everyone's help on the Wehrmacht-Awards forum was great, but I'm hoping to find more of a consensus.

I just have a hard time getting over the idea of how it came to the USA with simple Lehr Regiment = Doughboy Souvinir. If it were for the Lehr Regiment, it would have been weapon #387. That seems high to me, considering what else I've seen in P.08s.

Has seen another weapon number that high on P.08s?

I guess it's possible that they had already went through over 300 by early 1918, if they still kept record of it.

One more thing to bring to the discussion, and this might only cause confusion is the source of the markings. The straight-topped 3 on my P.08 looks alot like the 3's I've seen on Russian M91/30 rifles (straight top and curl at the curl at the end of the bottom). Suppose this pistol was send to the Landwehr Regiment, then stationed in Russia, it might make sense that it was marked with available tools, even utilizing Russian tools.
Out there yes, but what do you guys think?

George Anderson · 01-03-2007, 07:47 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by BBB
This is the same pistol Lyn.

One more thing to bring to the discussion, and this might only cause confusion is the source of the markings. The straight-topped 3 on my P.08 looks alot like the 3's I've seen on Russian M91/30 rifles (straight top and curl at the curl at the end of the bottom). Suppose this pistol was send to the Landwehr Regiment, then stationed in Russia, it might make sense that it was marked with available tools, even utilizing Russian tools.
Out there yes, but what do you guys think?

I think that you are really grasping at straws with the notion that the marking could have been made with a Russian set of tools...None of the cyrillic alphabets include the letters "L" and "R" and only the Ukrainian alphabet includes a substitute for the letter "I". Also keep in mind that the Russians were effectivly out of the war by the time this pistol would have reached the troops.

Don M · 01-03-2007, 09:00 AM

I'm virtually certain that it is not a Weimar police marking.

Ron Smith · 01-03-2007, 09:20 AM

Just a WAG, but it's possibly Landwehr Infantry Regt. 3 weapon 87. Considering that it appears stamped by a unit armorer(unit marking was ordered discontinued in 1917) without the use of a mandrel. It's conceavable that he missed placing the period between 3 and 8. My vote would be that it is a Landwehr unit mark. I doubt very seriously that it is a Russian mark.

Jeff Noll's book, at least to my knowlege, has very few reported errors. The mark is also identified as Landwehr in "Deutsche Truppenstempel bis 1918"

Another thing to consider is that by 1918 they were drawing troops and conscripts from every available source. With the Landwehr being made up of "old" troopers. It's possible that there were 387 weapons issued as they began to "recruit" the older men to fill the ranks.

Ron

George Anderson · 01-03-2007, 10:10 AM

Ron, Noll reports a 1918 dated DWM with a different serial number but the exact same unit marking. It would be interesting to see the manner in which the pistol Noll reports is marked.

Ron Smith · 01-03-2007, 10:22 AM

Geo,

I noticed that. Rather odd...

Ron

BogeyB · 01-03-2007, 08:07 PM

Ron,

Could these guns be regemental hqs. guns, or reserve weapons not yet issued. Not " in the book"?

Mike

BBB · 01-03-2007, 08:10 PM

So, is the marking reported by Noll actually the same (L.I.R.387.)?

Or does it just mention the same regiment, and possibly giving more information such as the company, battallion, or anything like that?

Too bad we don't have a picture of it to compare the font.

I guess the big question for me is the number. Is it a weapon issue number or the regimental number.

Ron Smith · 01-03-2007, 09:41 PM

Hi Chad,

Yes, it's the exact unit mark and number, but on a 1918 with different serial number.

The problem that I see is that the font and number size on your Luger doesn't look right. The numbers should be smaller than the letters, which they are not. The leg on the R should be curved with a "toe".

Here are some examples.

Ron

BBB · 01-03-2007, 10:23 PM

Ron,

Thanks for the pics. I agree with what you said.

The numbers should be smaller, and the R should have a curved leg.

The 3 in the picture you posted seems to be similar, with the straight top, but the kink in the middle is more severe on yours. Your R's also seem to differ very slightly on the two different pistols (length of curved leg that sticks out at the end), but they at least look like Imperial R's.

Anyone that wants a high resolution (much larger shot) of the two that I provided can e-mail me if they think they need to see more in determining originality or fine details.

chad_quandt@hotmail.com

At least they put periods after each letter...something kind of Imperial-ish.

BBB · 01-14-2007, 10:10 PM

I've been looking real closely at the pictures of the marking (the pistol is actually in storage right now), and I noticed that the "I" is definately taller than the rest of the characters.

I am wondering if it could be the Roman numeral "I" instead.

The other characters seem to be pretty much the same size.

Whether that makes any difference in the translation (Landwehr, Leib, Lehr), maybe not.

01-02-2007, 04:30 PM	#1
BBB User Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 6 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	DWM 1918 unit markings I have a DWM 1918 P.08, sn#352. The unit marking reads Ã¢??L.I.R.387.Ã¢?Â My first thought was that it would be for Landwehr Infantry Regiment 387, but I know that this regiment was transferred to the Eastern Front at the end of 1917 for the duration of the war, making it unlikely that it was brought to the USA as a souvenir (I suspect that is how it got here but I donÃ¢??t know for sure). IÃ¢??ve also looked into Ã¢??Lehr Infantry Regiment, weapon #387Ã¢?Â. I know this regiment was part of the 3rd Guards Division for the entire war and they DID face Americans in 1918. Additionally, IÃ¢??ve considered the Leib (Lifguard) Regiment, but I havenÃ¢??t been able to determine if they ever faced Americans. As for the markings themselves, they are of a different font than that which seems to be typical of Imperial marked lugers, especially the Ã¢??RÃ¢?Â and the straight-topped Ã¢??3Ã¢?Â. Could these be post-war/Wiemar period markings? There does not seem to be much difference in the height of the letters and numbers, which seems to by the standard for Imperial unit marked lugers. Lastly, are these markings fake? I think the wear on the grip strap, as well as the scattered spots of darkening (rust?) that covers the strap and surrounds the unit marks seems to be consistent. So I donÃ¢??t think they are fake, but I would like to hear from others. I appreciate any help. Thanks, Chad Attached Images

01-02-2007, 04:31 PM	#2
BBB User Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 6 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	another pic of the marking Here's a straight on shot. Attached Images

01-03-2007, 06:11 AM	#5
BBB User Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 6 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	same pistol This is the same pistol Lyn. I had pretty much decided on the Landwehr idea just based on what was on the pistol. Everyone's help on the Wehrmacht-Awards forum was great, but I'm hoping to find more of a consensus. I just have a hard time getting over the idea of how it came to the USA with simple Lehr Regiment = Doughboy Souvinir. If it were for the Lehr Regiment, it would have been weapon #387. That seems high to me, considering what else I've seen in P.08s. Has seen another weapon number that high on P.08s? I guess it's possible that they had already went through over 300 by early 1918, if they still kept record of it. One more thing to bring to the discussion, and this might only cause confusion is the source of the markings. The straight-topped 3 on my P.08 looks alot like the 3's I've seen on Russian M91/30 rifles (straight top and curl at the curl at the end of the bottom). Suppose this pistol was send to the Landwehr Regiment, then stationed in Russia, it might make sense that it was marked with available tools, even utilizing Russian tools. Out there yes, but what do you guys think?

01-03-2007, 09:00 AM	#7
Don M Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 1,429 Thanks: 67 Thanked 292 Times in 191 Posts	I'm virtually certain that it is not a Weimar police marking. __________________ Regards, Don donmaus1@aol.com Author of History Writ in Steel: German Police Markings 1900-1936 http://www.historywritinsteel.com

01-03-2007, 09:20 AM	#8
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	Just a WAG, but it's possibly Landwehr Infantry Regt. 3 weapon 87. Considering that it appears stamped by a unit armorer(unit marking was ordered discontinued in 1917) without the use of a mandrel. It's conceavable that he missed placing the period between 3 and 8. My vote would be that it is a Landwehr unit mark. I doubt very seriously that it is a Russian mark. Jeff Noll's book, at least to my knowlege, has very few reported errors. The mark is also identified as Landwehr in "Deutsche Truppenstempel bis 1918" Another thing to consider is that by 1918 they were drawing troops and conscripts from every available source. With the Landwehr being made up of "old" troopers. It's possible that there were 387 weapons issued as they began to "recruit" the older men to fill the ranks. Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

01-02-2007, 04:39 PM	#3
Brent B. User Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 176 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	My first thought is that it's a police marking but I'm not sure. Hopefully one of the other fellows will be able to give an exact ID on it. Brent B.

01-02-2007, 10:28 PM	#4
Lyn Islaub Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 435 Thanks: 3 Thanked 152 Times in 72 Posts	This pistol was the subject of discussion on the Wehrmacht Awards Forum a month or so ago. At that time, I had identified the marking as Landwehr Infanterie Regiment 387 per page 95 in Jeff Noll's "Imperial German Regimental Marking" book. I received some pushback from a couple of the Forum members who believed that Noll was mistaken in his identification of this marking, so it will be interesting to see some input from members of this Forum that have more extensive knowledge of Imperial unit markings than I do. Lyn

01-03-2007, 10:10 AM	#9
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,769 Thanked 2,527 Times in 786 Posts	Ron, Noll reports a 1918 dated DWM with a different serial number but the exact same unit marking. It would be interesting to see the manner in which the pistol Noll reports is marked.

01-03-2007, 10:22 AM	#10
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	Geo, I noticed that. Rather odd... Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

01-03-2007, 08:07 PM	#11
BogeyB Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Mc Donough, GA. Posts: 419 Thanks: 0 Thanked 222 Times in 96 Posts	Ron, Could these guns be regemental hqs. guns, or reserve weapons not yet issued. Not " in the book"? Mike __________________ MAGA Always!! NRA Benifactor, GCA

01-03-2007, 08:10 PM	#12
BBB User Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 6 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	the marking reported by Noll So, is the marking reported by Noll actually the same (L.I.R.387.)? Or does it just mention the same regiment, and possibly giving more information such as the company, battallion, or anything like that? Too bad we don't have a picture of it to compare the font. I guess the big question for me is the number. Is it a weapon issue number or the regimental number.

01-03-2007, 09:41 PM	#13
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	Hi Chad, Yes, it's the exact unit mark and number, but on a 1918 with different serial number. The problem that I see is that the font and number size on your Luger doesn't look right. The numbers should be smaller than the letters, which they are not. The leg on the R should be curved with a "toe". Here are some examples. Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

01-03-2007, 10:23 PM	#14
BBB User Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 6 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	pics Ron, Thanks for the pics. I agree with what you said. The numbers should be smaller, and the R should have a curved leg. The 3 in the picture you posted seems to be similar, with the straight top, but the kink in the middle is more severe on yours. Your R's also seem to differ very slightly on the two different pistols (length of curved leg that sticks out at the end), but they at least look like Imperial R's. Anyone that wants a high resolution (much larger shot) of the two that I provided can e-mail me if they think they need to see more in determining originality or fine details. chad_quandt@hotmail.com At least they put periods after each letter...something kind of Imperial-ish.

01-14-2007, 10:10 PM	#15
BBB User Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 6 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I've been looking real closely at the pictures of the marking (the pistol is actually in storage right now), and I noticed that the "I" is definately taller than the rest of the characters. I am wondering if it could be the Roman numeral "I" instead. The other characters seem to be pretty much the same size. Whether that makes any difference in the translation (Landwehr, Leib, Lehr), maybe not.