Pictures Of the Factories - Page 2

Puretexan · 06-15-2017, 11:24 PM

Thanks those are nice.

DonVoigt · 06-15-2017, 11:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SIGP2101

Ok here is more on Mauserwerke, had to find different host. Click on the link then click on the image to see it in full size.

Thanks,
I see rifles, M1896 pistols, and Mauser typewriters and sewing machines too!

kurusu · 06-16-2017, 03:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DonVoigt

Thanks,
I see rifles, M1896 pistols, and Mauser typewriters and sewing machines too!

Those calipers you see being used are most likely also Mauser made.

Wastoute · 06-16-2017, 07:59 AM

Thanks so much for the photos. Interesting to note, the one picture with the "lines" of milling machines. Notice only one guy in between each of the lines of four or five machines? When I was a machinist in the 70s we had one "operator" per machine. I talked once to an old guy who had been a machinist during the depression who spoke of having to run multiple machines at once. You had to start a cut on one and then while the cut was being made you went on to the next and so on. You can see that in this photo, that is why there is only one guy per each of the machines in that line.

Wastoute · 06-16-2017, 08:24 AM

My recollection of historical progress was that somewhere around 1890 to 1900 was when machine tooling really began, and in some respects it was. I had thought that prior to that era even Colt SAA had to be assembled from parts that were hand forged into rough shape, filed, then hardened and ground into a final "Go-No Go" piece for assembly. Turns out early mills were around some 30 years or so before that so perhaps that 1860 to 1890 and the process of machining was really in evolution on conjunction with metallurgy to provide some steels for cutting and others for products.

I guess "W-group" tool steel was the first. I wonder if they even really knew why it was harder. Perhaps all they knew was "some ores produced harder steel" and they could use that for cutting softer steel. Then "high speed" steel in the 1910s really opened things up, and carbide in the 50s.

Wastoute · 06-16-2017, 08:27 AM

Also notice the one picture of milling machines where only some of the machines have belts running from the overhead drives and the rest have electric motors.

SIGP2101 · 06-16-2017, 11:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wastoute

My recollection of historical progress was that somewhere around 1890 to 1900 was when machine tooling really began, and in some respects it was. I had thought that prior to that era even Colt SAA had to be assembled from parts that were hand forged into rough shape, filed, then hardened and ground into a final "Go-No Go" piece for assembly. Turns out early mills were around some 30 years or so before that so perhaps that 1860 to 1890 and the process of machining was really in evolution on conjunction with metallurgy to provide some steels for cutting and others for products.

I guess "W-group" tool steel was the first. I wonder if they even really knew why it was harder. Perhaps all they knew was "some ores produced harder steel" and they could use that for cutting softer steel. Then "high speed" steel in the 1910s really opened things up, and carbide in the 50s.

Colt was a pioneer in machining tools and tooling. Most of the machines were produced in Hartford and exported throughout the world. Here are some of the early Colt's machines produced in Colt's armories. Most of the black powder revolvers were produced on those type of machinery.

For those who would like to know more here is interesting article from 1857 describing Colt's armory at that time.

Armory

Pictures are courtesy of Connecticut State Library. I have many more but getting tired of resizing them just to be able to upload to server.

Enjoy!

mrerick · 06-16-2017, 12:17 PM

It looks like that collection is online at:

http://cslib.cdmhost.com/cdm/landing...n/p128501coll6

with images from Colt digitized and indexed at: (but I don't see the machinist photos you posted. Are they in different collection?)

http://cslib.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/...r/title/ad/asc

Wastoute · 06-16-2017, 02:29 PM

Thanks for the Colt photos. The lathes were more advanced for the time than I would have guessed. That second machine, I don't even recognize, maybe a key cutter or broaching machine for the frames. I am guessing (since the black and white photos don't show the color of the metals) that for the most part they used cast iron and brass for these machines since they didn't have good tool steels. Fascinating. Notice the "mill" hadn't really been introduced yet. I would imagine they needed really good tool steels to make that step. Wiki mentions an early "file mill" which was really a lathe with a "face cutter file". And that hadn't even been done in 1854.

cirelaw · 06-16-2017, 02:46 PM

Mauser factory in Fred Datigs book

cirelaw · 06-16-2017, 02:52 PM

Krieghoff Factory Tour~ http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=426910

SIGP2101 · 06-19-2017, 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wastoute

Thanks for the Colt photos. The lathes were more advanced for the time than I would have guessed. That second machine, I don't even recognize, maybe a key cutter or broaching machine for the frames. I am guessing (since the black and white photos don't show the color of the metals) that for the most part they used cast iron and brass for these machines since they didn't have good tool steels. Fascinating. Notice the "mill" hadn't really been introduced yet. I would imagine they needed really good tool steels to make that step. Wiki mentions an early "file mill" which was really a lathe with a "face cutter file". And that hadn't even been done in 1854.

If you hover your mouse over pics it should give you a name of each machine depicted in it. Back in those days they run many mills but not as mills as we know them in todays typical configuration. Back then mills were mostly of horizontal type mills and they would wary in sizes. Typical operation for such mill would be production of percussion musket lock plate, for example.

Also, shapers , played big role in production of various parts back then. Horizontal, vertical large and small shapers were utilised in production of many parts.

Puretexan · 06-19-2017, 11:39 AM

I wonder what kind of machine they used to cut the rectangular hole for the safety bar.
Its already thin and they cut a perfect hole for it to ride in. I can't imagine how they did it. I have a mill and doubt that I could do it.

SIGP2101 · 06-19-2017, 12:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Puretexan

I wonder what kind of machine they used to cut the rectangular hole for the safety bar.
Its already thin and they cut a perfect hole for it to ride in. I can't imagine how they did it. I have a mill and doubt that I could do it.

By broaching on vertical press after drilling initial hole. Custom made broach would be used for this. That is one possibility, another way would be shaper tool.

Chickenthief · 06-19-2017, 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Puretexan

I wonder what kind of machine they used to cut the rectangular hole for the safety bar.
Its already thin and they cut a perfect hole for it to ride in. I can't imagine how they did it. I have a mill and doubt that I could do it.

A round pilot hole drilled and a square reamer pushed through.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7n1r5XfVkyk

Way back then they had umpteen machines in a long row each only doing one operation.

mrerick · 06-19-2017, 07:45 PM

Here's a complete article (from 1942) on the manufacture of the Colt M1911a1 Automatic Pistol:

http://www.gunlab.net/wp-content/upl...anufacture.pdf

DonVoigt · 06-19-2017, 10:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrerick

Here's a complete article (from 1942) on the manufacture of the Colt M1911a1 Automatic Pistol:

http://www.gunlab.net/wp-content/upl...anufacture.pdf

Thanks Marc,
super article- and amazine the number of machines, cutters , and steps needed!

Wastoute · 06-20-2017, 08:49 AM

Thanks, mrerick. What I woldn't give to see a similar article on the Luger...

IIRC, somewhere on the web there is a great presentation of a guy making a 1911 100% from SS billet. Can't seem to find it at the moment.

Wastoute · 06-20-2017, 08:52 AM

Think about this, chickenthief. In that photo, those machines are all sitting on wood floors and bolted down or even just screwed in. Can you imagine the chatter in the cutting? It must have been frustrating as can be to try to run one of those machines. And "letting up" and cutting lighter/smaller don't help chatter, it frequently makes it worse.

Wastoute · 06-20-2017, 09:03 AM

Something else to think about. We may have dreams of making "one" of something (1911, Luger, whatever). I remember my days as a machinist. When you are assigned to a new job doing one part of a multiple operation sequence, the first dozen or so you do are usually crap because you haven't figured out all the little intricacies. It ain't until you have done several hundred when you really start to get the hang of it. With respect to how many rough passes? What feed? Is a finish pass necessary? Are there factors that complicate getting a great finish (do you have to wait until the Bullard in the next bay is finished his rough cut?)

Think about it, some 53 pieces in a 1911, 162 individual operations on the frame alone. Almost all these operations an individual step, and each step has to be mastered by the operator with regard to all the little intricacies, many of which can't really be explained and taught verbally. Mind boggling.

06-16-2017, 08:24 AM	#25
Wastoute User Join Date: May 2017 Location: Yorktown, VA Posts: 30 Thanks: 39 Thanked 5 Times in 5 Posts	My recollection of historical progress was that somewhere around 1890 to 1900 was when machine tooling really began, and in some respects it was. I had thought that prior to that era even Colt SAA had to be assembled from parts that were hand forged into rough shape, filed, then hardened and ground into a final "Go-No Go" piece for assembly. Turns out early mills were around some 30 years or so before that so perhaps that 1860 to 1890 and the process of machining was really in evolution on conjunction with metallurgy to provide some steels for cutting and others for products. I guess "W-group" tool steel was the first. I wonder if they even really knew why it was harder. Perhaps all they knew was "some ores produced harder steel" and they could use that for cutting softer steel. Then "high speed" steel in the 1910s really opened things up, and carbide in the 50s. Last edited by Wastoute; 06-16-2017 at 08:26 AM. Reason: Spelling

06-16-2017, 12:17 PM	#28
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,900 Thanks: 1,370 Thanked 3,094 Times in 1,503 Posts	It looks like that collection is online at: http://cslib.cdmhost.com/cdm/landing...n/p128501coll6 with images from Colt digitized and indexed at: (but I don't see the machinist photos you posted. Are they in different collection?) http://cslib.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/...r/title/ad/asc __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

06-16-2017, 02:46 PM	#30
cirelaw Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PORT ST LUCIE, FLORIDA Posts: 12,216 Thanks: 6,209 Thanked 4,133 Times in 2,173 Posts	Mauser factory in Fred Datigs book Attached Thumbnails

06-16-2017, 02:52 PM	#31
cirelaw Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PORT ST LUCIE, FLORIDA Posts: 12,216 Thanks: 6,209 Thanked 4,133 Times in 2,173 Posts	Krieghoff Factory Tour~ http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=426910 Attached Thumbnails

06-19-2017, 07:45 PM	#36
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,900 Thanks: 1,370 Thanked 3,094 Times in 1,503 Posts	Here's a complete article (from 1942) on the manufacture of the Colt M1911a1 Automatic Pistol: http://www.gunlab.net/wp-content/upl...anufacture.pdf __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

06-15-2017, 11:24 PM	#21
Puretexan User Join Date: May 2017 Location: Pearland Texas Posts: 176 Thanks: 11 Thanked 70 Times in 36 Posts	Thanks those are nice.

06-16-2017, 07:59 AM	#24
Wastoute User Join Date: May 2017 Location: Yorktown, VA Posts: 30 Thanks: 39 Thanked 5 Times in 5 Posts	Thanks so much for the photos. Interesting to note, the one picture with the "lines" of milling machines. Notice only one guy in between each of the lines of four or five machines? When I was a machinist in the 70s we had one "operator" per machine. I talked once to an old guy who had been a machinist during the depression who spoke of having to run multiple machines at once. You had to start a cut on one and then while the cut was being made you went on to the next and so on. You can see that in this photo, that is why there is only one guy per each of the machines in that line.

06-16-2017, 08:27 AM	#26
Wastoute User Join Date: May 2017 Location: Yorktown, VA Posts: 30 Thanks: 39 Thanked 5 Times in 5 Posts	Also notice the one picture of milling machines where only some of the machines have belts running from the overhead drives and the rest have electric motors.

06-16-2017, 02:29 PM	#29
Wastoute User Join Date: May 2017 Location: Yorktown, VA Posts: 30 Thanks: 39 Thanked 5 Times in 5 Posts	Thanks for the Colt photos. The lathes were more advanced for the time than I would have guessed. That second machine, I don't even recognize, maybe a key cutter or broaching machine for the frames. I am guessing (since the black and white photos don't show the color of the metals) that for the most part they used cast iron and brass for these machines since they didn't have good tool steels. Fascinating. Notice the "mill" hadn't really been introduced yet. I would imagine they needed really good tool steels to make that step. Wiki mentions an early "file mill" which was really a lathe with a "face cutter file". And that hadn't even been done in 1854.

06-19-2017, 11:39 AM	#33
Puretexan User Join Date: May 2017 Location: Pearland Texas Posts: 176 Thanks: 11 Thanked 70 Times in 36 Posts	I wonder what kind of machine they used to cut the rectangular hole for the safety bar. Its already thin and they cut a perfect hole for it to ride in. I can't imagine how they did it. I have a mill and doubt that I could do it.

06-20-2017, 08:49 AM	#38
Wastoute User Join Date: May 2017 Location: Yorktown, VA Posts: 30 Thanks: 39 Thanked 5 Times in 5 Posts	Thanks, mrerick. What I woldn't give to see a similar article on the Luger... IIRC, somewhere on the web there is a great presentation of a guy making a 1911 100% from SS billet. Can't seem to find it at the moment.

06-20-2017, 08:52 AM	#39
Wastoute User Join Date: May 2017 Location: Yorktown, VA Posts: 30 Thanks: 39 Thanked 5 Times in 5 Posts	Think about this, chickenthief. In that photo, those machines are all sitting on wood floors and bolted down or even just screwed in. Can you imagine the chatter in the cutting? It must have been frustrating as can be to try to run one of those machines. And "letting up" and cutting lighter/smaller don't help chatter, it frequently makes it worse.

06-20-2017, 09:03 AM	#40
Wastoute User Join Date: May 2017 Location: Yorktown, VA Posts: 30 Thanks: 39 Thanked 5 Times in 5 Posts	Something else to think about. We may have dreams of making "one" of something (1911, Luger, whatever). I remember my days as a machinist. When you are assigned to a new job doing one part of a multiple operation sequence, the first dozen or so you do are usually crap because you haven't figured out all the little intricacies. It ain't until you have done several hundred when you really start to get the hang of it. With respect to how many rough passes? What feed? Is a finish pass necessary? Are there factors that complicate getting a great finish (do you have to wait until the Bullard in the next bay is finished his rough cut?) Think about it, some 53 pieces in a 1911, 162 individual operations on the frame alone. Almost all these operations an individual step, and each step has to be mastered by the operator with regard to all the little intricacies, many of which can't really be explained and taught verbally. Mind boggling.