Telltale Mark

[Norme]

Maybe it's just me, but I think the shameless hijacking of this thread by Alvin shows gross lack of consideration to the original poster who, you may recall, was asking about the impact marks on the rear of Luger frames.
Norm

[Edward Tinker]

yes, I agree, the first couple of comments are fine and the original poster replied, but then it seemed that Alvin went off on a huge tangent.

I don't expect folks to always keep on target, but Alvin, you go off target a lot. Like Don said, trying to be analytical on an issue you don't know. I know you know a lot more than me Alvin, but this ''bowie'' knife issue is a good example. The difference between a 150 yr old bowie and one bought on ebay as a cheap copy is night and day.

BUT, I sometimes think you are just screwing with people...

[CAP Black]

There are oh so many knife makers and they make their products from so many different materials. So it is a matter of the quality of the steel in the blade; how the knife is constructed; how well the blade holds an edge, etc. Then there is the matter of appearances.
We all like knives that look great. Some people stop there. I know knife makers that have been doing it for years and they make only good stuff. They get good prices for their goods. Other people's may look super. Some are some aren't.
Talk to maker and see what he does and how he does it.
Then decide.
Thanks
Jack

[alvin]

Never mind. Let's return to topic.

In short, the staple mark being a tellmark or not depends on overall condition context. On worn items, lacking of staple mark tells reblue. Those reblued items usually have many signs, not only one. On well preserved ones, it's not necessarily being a tellmark. Case by case. There are some guns were not fired more than postwar Interarms Luger, not used or very lightly used. Depends on your vision and habit, some people love those unused gun, some people feel that's boring lacking of history usage etc and love worn guns. Personally, both types work for me, but I love mint gun in worn gun's price, and worn gun is acceptable too if it's an interesting one Usually not available every month, but you can almost always find people selling items greatly undervalue every year. No kidding.

[cirelaw]

Check our History Channel, 'Forged In Fire' A wonderful program on sword and knife making competition~~http://www.history.com/shows/forged-in-fire

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by cirelaw

Check our History Channel, 'Forged In Fire' A wonderful program on sword and knife making competition~~http://www.history.com/shows/forged-in-fire

We can always count on you to restore order, Eric!

[cirelaw]

Thank You Rich!!!

[Puretexan]

I was really just curious that a mark didn't appear on every 80 or 90 year old gun, that surely had been fired at some point in its life. The consensus is they were fired very little, or beblued , or maybe ran perfect where the spring was perfectly balanced as to not slam it into the back hard enough to leave the mark. So that makes sense to me.

[Dwight Gruber]

Sturgess provides a rather different reason for the rear frame toggle strike mark. He addresses the entire rear frame strengthening process and reasoning in detail on pp1091-1098 of the red edition. In the course of the discussion he notes how and why the rear frame toggle mark is the result only of the toggle tail being levered against the frame during hand-operation of the action; during actual firing the toggle tail does not contact the frame. It is worth taking the time to read.

He does contradict this in passing, in several comments previous to this section.

--Dwight

[Puretexan]

I might get in trouble , but in any test, the results can be skewed to let you prove any theory. Maybe the test Sturgess performed was with a new pistol. If you read the posts on this website, you will see that the first recommendation for a Luger not functioning right is the tape on the back trick. If your pistol doesn't touch the tape then maybe the
mainspring is too weak. I think there is more knowledge on this site by experience, than in most of the books you recommend us to read. JMHO I really believe he must know his stuff if he can sell his books for $300 a pop. Now yall can tell me I'm stupid.

[alvin]

Brand new Interarms has no staple mark. I fired two of those in the past. Staple mark appeared after a box of ammo being fired.

[Dwight Gruber]

Originally Posted by Puretexan

I might get in trouble , but in any test, the results can be skewed to let you prove any theory. Maybe the test Sturgess performed was with a new pistol. If you read the posts on this website, you will see that the first recommendation for a Luger not functioning right is the tape on the back trick. If your pistol doesn't touch the tape then maybe the
mainspring is too weak.

This may very well be wrong.

Originally Posted by Puretexan

I think there is more knowledge on this site by experience, than in most of the books you recommend us to read. JMHO I really believe he must know his stuff if he can sell his books for $300 a pop. Now yall can tell me I'm stupid.

I provided my source. As much as I respect what you post here, I suggest that you read it before you continue posting your opinions.

--Dwight

[Rick W.]

In my opinion, I would suspect that the book reference mentioned probably says how it is supposed to work from design perspectives, and with the pistol in proper tune for its ammo selection. It takes some work to get these old pistols to move during the shooting operation like perhaps they were originally intended; it has been for me anyway.

Wartime useage and layman abuse might get outside of that theoretical window. We all know the Luger will "work" with overly hot ammo, but the life of the pistol is shortened dramatically; just a matter of getting used to things I reckon; seems like all knowledge has a learning curve.

I would think that levering the toggle to make some indentations(some are right deep) that one sees over the years on some pistols might take a pretty stout boy. Again just another opinion.

The mark on the rear of the Luger gives me an indication of how the pistol was treated/maintained from a shooting point of view. I like some of the historical aspects, but finally moved to the shooting arena only; hence my interest in said marks. Pistol maintenance overall can make the Luger work as designed, I think that handloading or selection of ammo will take that aspect to the next level. I find that collectors and shooters have a bit of commonality, both care about the longevity of said pistols; but of course..........always a few ringers in both groups.....

Hopefully there will always be room in groups for the new guys and the old guys; hopefully remembering some of what Mom told us(me as well).

[Puretexan]

Yeah Dwight, I have about asked all the questions I wanted to. I will probably stop posting. If nothing else it might make you think. Thanks everybody for your input.

[DonVoigt]

[QUOTE=Puretexan;304008].....

If you read the posts on this website, you will see that the first recommendation for a Luger not functioning right is the tape on the back trick. If your pistol doesn't touch the tape then maybe the
mainspring is too weak......"

You wrote this just backwards,
If it does NOT touch the tape, the spring is too Strong!

[Puretexan]

Sorry Don, I knew that. Was early and I didn't finish my coffee yet.

[cirelaw]

Between a commercial luger a military~ A 1902 Commercial Fat Barrel~A 1914 DWM Artillery~

[Puretexan]

I have two 1920's and one 1939 police. All of them have the mark on the back
of the frame part. How did your 713 get it on the toggle itself?

[cirelaw]

Every 1902 fat barrel lthat I have researched had 3 digits on the toggle~ Possibility because there was less than 500 made and were meant for the American commercial market! All the rest of my 20 are similarly marked with 2 digits~

[Puretexan]

Cirelaw, I meant how did the scratch part from firing get on your toggle
instead of the frame?