Telltale Mark

[Puretexan]

Ok when I shoot my lugers, they leave a mark on the
back that looks like a staple ,where the toggle hits the
frame. If it happens to all of them ,then how can there be
so many pistols with no mark on the back. Were they never shot in 80 or 90 years, and just carried around to wear the bluing off? What is up with this? I checked the
FAQ too and nothing.

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by Puretexan

Ok when I shoot my lugers, they leave a mark on the
back that looks like a staple ,where the toggle hits the
frame. If it happens to all of them ,then how can there be
so many pistols with no mark on the back.

They are reblued. All Lugers that have been shot and show signs of age will have the 'slap' mark. Only new, unfired, or refinished Lugers will have no slap mark.

It's 'normal'. There will also be a corresponding mark inside the frame where the toggle/breechblock hits. In a perfect world, the mainspring would be balanced to eliminate or lessen the 'slap'. That rarely is the case.

[Puretexan]

Do you think they shot every one as they made them, or just put them together and
shipped them out? In a wartime production , I would doubt if they wasted ammo test
firing. Might be wrong and usually am.

[Chickenthief]

Originally Posted by Puretexan

Do you think they shot every one as they made them, or just put them together and
shipped them out? In a wartime production , I would doubt if they wasted ammo test
firing. Might be wrong and usually am.

Every single weapon manufactured was testfired for proof and function. But a few shots wont mar the finish.

For instance the best 98k's testfired for group was set aside and equipped with a scope.

[alvin]

Where did you see those... Legacy-collectibles.com ? If that's the place, then, a few, not many. They generally market old items not used much in the past.

[Puretexan]

Yeah some I see don't have the mark. I bought a reblue from Checkpoint. Shot a box through it and it got that mark. Kinda scared me that my ammo might be too hot. It
was factory stuff so I figured it was suppose to do that, and nobody had shot it since
it was blued.
I thought since all these had been shot that they all should have had that mark.

[Sergio Natali]

Originally Posted by Puretexan

Do you think they shot every one as they made them, or just put them together and
shipped them out? In a wartime production , I would doubt if they wasted ammo test
firing. Might be wrong and usually am.

FWIK in Germany all guns were repeatedly testfired both before and after blueing, and apparently many Lugers did not pass the inspections and they had to put them right.

[alvin]

Originally Posted by Puretexan

Yeah some I see don't have the mark. I bought a reblue from Checkpoint. Shot a box through it and it got that mark. Kinda scared me that my ammo might be too hot. It
was factory stuff so I figured it was suppose to do that, and nobody had shot it since
it was blued.
I thought since all these had been shot that they all should have had that mark.

Checkpoint is a different story. In general, Checkpoint markets mid to lower end items. In C&R spectrum, each dealer has their main area of operation.

Of course, a gun being original or not is not by seller. But sellers' main area of business is a factor on items they carry.

[Puretexan]

Alvin, being a shooter and not a collector, I went for the best cheap I could find.
Even a $1000 for a shooter was a stretch for me. I could get two CZp07's or 2 Walther PPQ's for a cheap shooter luger. Its all in what you want. I see new people on this forum, and they all buy a commercial 1920's and wonder if its rare. Doubt they want
to spend $3000 for a collectable at first.

[DonVoigt]

The more lugers you look at the more differences you will see in that "mark".
Some are one sided, some are very thin, maybe there are a few that are just right and don't have a mark, some are worn considerably-perhaps from hot ammo, lots of use, or a weak mainspring.

The mark is entirely "normal" and varies with respect to appearance/wear.

[alvin]

Morphy Auctions is interesting today. A reblued 42 sold $5500, and there is 15% on top of that. Who's bidding on that.. but on price level, that's nothing comparing with a brand of small knife called "Bowie Knife".

Heard of "Bowie Knife"? I know nothing about it... probably rare,. Just being rare does not mean it worth much, but obviously there are many people collecting those and they competed with each other. Many those small knives sold $30K, $40K, $50K, $90K etc today. If not seeing those sale myself, I had thought those knives just being rare junk... you never know.

[Puretexan]

Alvin, probably some dummie wanting to start his collection and it was pretty. If your looking for Bowie Knives, stay up late and they sell 40 or 50 in a lot for $26. The cable has it all.

[alvin]

No. No kidding. Having one or two "dummies", that's not surprise. But given the volume of these Bowie Knives in this auction session, and price level, just one or two bidders could not pump price up like this... astonishing. There must be an army of them. It's not one or two items, it's a list of full page of Bowies going crazy.

Go proxy and see them, search "Bowie", you will see them.

https://www.proxibid.com/asp/Catalog.asp?aid=127388

[Puretexan]

Handmade knives are really collectable. You would think they are collecting something
really cool. They do have a bunch for sale. Probably have a 1000 on Ebay. You can buy
one that is folded 400 times for around $60. Damascus is really in.

[DonVoigt]

Originally Posted by alvin

Morphy Auctions is interesting today. A reblued 42 sold $5500, and there is 15% on top of that. Who's bidding on that.. but on price level, that's nothing comparing with a brand of small knife called "Bowie Knife".

Heard of "Bowie Knife"? I know nothing about it... probably rare,. Just being rare does not mean it worth much, but obviously there are many people collecting those and they competed with each other. Many those small knives sold $30K, $40K, $50K, $90K etc today. If not seeing those sale myself, I had thought those knives just being rare junk... you never know.

Perfect example of trying to analyze something logically without any knowledge of what you are talking about.

Bowie Knives are highly collectible, there were and are many makers, some are quite rare and there are many styles. Condition impacts pricing- just as it does with lugers and brooms. Books have been written about collectible, historic "bowie" knives- not the 10 for $26 that Paul mentioned.

Apples and oranges.

[cirelaw]

Luger Birth Marks~~

[ithacaartist]

Originally Posted by alvin

Morphy Auctions is interesting today. A reblued 42 sold $5500, and there is 15% on top of that. Who's bidding on that.. but on price level, that's nothing comparing with a brand of small knife called "Bowie Knife".

Heard of "Bowie Knife"? I know nothing about it... probably rare,. Just being rare does not mean it worth much, but obviously there are many people collecting those and they competed with each other. Many those small knives sold $30K, $40K, $50K, $90K etc today. If not seeing those sale myself, I had thought those knives just being rare junk... you never know.

"Bowie knife" is basically a generic term for what one might call a "gentleman's fighting knife." The concept is based upon the legend that James (Jim) Bowie, who died in the battle of the Alamo, owned and used one. Although commonly interpreted as having had a large blade of 10" or more, with a clip point, the original is lost to posterity, and the specific blade architecture of the original "Bowie knife" will never be known.

[Bill_in_VA]

Originally Posted by Puretexan

[...] You can buy one that is folded 400 times for around $60. Damascus is really in.

IIRC, I paid around $400 for the one I own. Granted, I bought it on a visit to Audley House so that may have something to with it, too.

[alvin]

>> Perfect example of trying to analyze something logically without any knowledge of what you are talking about.

The purpose of illustrating this bowie example was not trying to analyze it from technical angle. But look at it from business perspective. Just searched "Bowie" on ebay and amazon, there are tons of knives selling from $5 to $150. Those must be fakes then.

On structure, knife's structure is much simpler than any firearms. No law controls making either. Given the eye-popping price of "genuine antique Bowie", in theory, there should be lots of high quality fakes too. Unfortunately, that's the way.

Hopefully, the bidders of those Bowies know what they have won. Of course they know? Not necessarily, there was bidder winning reblued 42 Mauser banner for $5.5k,,,, you know, the risk of $50k bowie is 10 time higher, and, consider complexity factor, the risk could be 100 times higher.

And, "handmade" by itself could be a big trap. Handmade means it can appear in any form. In C&R firearm domain, collectors compare samples against samples, compare thousands, or even tens of thousands of samples to summarize out something. In handmade world, comparison obviously won't work well. How about by provenance? Is there any provenance mentioned in auction... no... even mentioned, is that story sound?

Conclusion: playing bowie is like playing fire at home. Technical detail is secondary. That's decided by its nature, not by its details It's for people loving challenge.

[DonVoigt]

Alvin,
You would be better off to start your analysis with what a "bowie" knife is vs. what a Bowie knife is.

Looking at prices on ebay is a very strange place to start an analysis.

Folks that collect knives or specifically vintage "Bowie" type knives and pay big bucks know what they are doing; folks that want a utility knife or one to use may want a knife of the "bowie" pattern, because they can't afford a real Bowie knife or even a cheap, but handmade knife for $60.

Do you know where the term "bowie" knife originated?

Maybe a little historic research is in order.

I collected "bowie" type knives in the past, like I said there are books written on them, when I sold most of mine off, I sold my "best" book too- just the book sold for over $400 on Amazon.

I'm not saying that many of your observations are not valid, they can be said of collecting anything- from figurines to Carnival glass.

But if you want to talk about knife collecting, you really should do a little more reading first. JMHO.