Visit to Simpsons, Ltd - Import Marking Discussion - Page 2

cirelaw · 05-06-2015, 12:02 PM

Bob Simpson wrote me ALL firearms entering this country must be marked! I assume it only applies to those imported after to the 1968 act~ I believe they lose their luger virginity! Much like a non natural luger proof mark! Like adding you initials to a valuable work of art!! ~~I like natural non plastic surgery anything! I guess I'm old fashioned!! PS Bob is a heck of a nice guy along with his family!

Tom Nowling · 05-09-2015, 03:28 PM

I own a Benelli B-76 pistol that has neither a US distributor or an import mark on it. When I wrote Benelli about it, they stated it may have been brought in diplomatically or by a US service person. Who knows??
Not that it makes it more valuable, just interesting to me..LOL

DonVoigt · 06-07-2015, 02:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ken4

Does anyone know about how many lugers were brought into this country commercially and how many were war trophy's ?

Someone might know the former, but no way to know the latter!

Folks on the Japanese forum ask this question about Arisaka rifles all the time. Fortunately the military kept account of how many rifles were collected and then given to GI's as souveniers. Of a total of about 2.5 million, 1/2 were destroyed, and 1/2 souveniered!

I've not seen any thing similar regarding European trophys, but I believe there may be a "million" Lugers floating around too!

AR-50A1 · 07-05-2015, 02:58 PM

I recently purchased a 1913 Commercial DWM that was in the March 2015 Julia auction that came from the Sturgess collection. Import marked by Simpson Ltd. just on the left lip of the mag well.

An interesting side note: This pistol (s/n 71371) was advertised as a 1906 Commercial in the auction (lot 2315). Somebody messed up.

Bill

Dwight Gruber · 07-05-2015, 08:41 PM

If I understand the discussion correctly, Simpson's nice little mag well import mark was determined to be out-of-compliance. Can anybody report authoritatively if that is the case and, if so, what is their current marking practice on Lugers??

--Dwight

Ron Wood · 07-05-2015, 09:13 PM

I am only guessing. In addition to size and content, the import marking requirements specifies a precise depth of the marking. It looks to me that in order to meet the depth requirement Simpson laser cut a shallow groove in the magazine cutout and then laser engraved the import marks. This made the import marks meet the required depth below the original surface but the marks themselves ended up quite shallow and therefore less noticeable. I think that may have been tiptoeing at the boundary of meeting specifications. I could be all wet bit that is my guess. Whatever the process, bully for Simpson as it preserved the outward appearance of one of the most significant handgun collections ever to be offered to the collecting community.

cirelaw · 07-05-2015, 09:26 PM

And the plot thickens! I found an interesting blog on point! http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2...nd-conspiracy/

cirelaw · 07-05-2015, 10:30 PM

They are lucky as they can afford an awesome piece of machinery. If I represented them I would have my staff point out the markings. This way might prevent buyers remorse! A real pain. I'm sure! Bob and his family are a class act. Leave to them to make harder to enforce the rules! This thread is great as we should check well our purchases~I don't care what anyone says I want a virgin unless it is a Cartridge Counter~ Eric

AR-50A1 · 07-05-2015, 10:32 PM

Eric,

Thank you for doing this research. A very informative article.

It will be interesting to see where all of this leads to.

Bill

AR-50A1 · 07-05-2015, 10:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cirelaw

They are lucky as they can afford an awesome piece of machinery. If I represented them I would have my staff point out the markings. This way might prevent buyers remorse! A real pain. I'm sure! Bob and his family are a class act. Leave to them to make harder to enforce the rules! This thread is great as we should check well our purchases~I don't care what anyone says I want a virgin unless it is a Cartridge Counter~ Eric

Man you're picky!!

cirelaw · 07-05-2015, 10:45 PM

Thank You Bill, I was a Trial Attorney for many years~ Were cartridge counters exempt like test pieces? My 1920 carbine has a hidden 'GERMANY' inside on one of the thongs, others have it outside the body. Am I in compliance?

AR-50A1 · 07-05-2015, 10:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cirelaw

They are lucky as they can afford an awesome piece of machinery. If I represented them I would have my staff point out the markings. This way might prevent buyers remorse! A real pain. I'm sure! Bob and his family are a class act. Leave to them to make harder to enforce the rules! This thread is great as we should check well our purchases~I don't care what anyone says I want a virgin unless it is a Cartridge Counter~ Eric

I was talking to a mutual friend the other day - Jerry Burney. He said you were tenacious!

I don't know a thing about Cartridge Counters other than they are expensive!

Lugerdoc · 07-06-2015, 08:57 AM

hiding the import markings is nothing new. I recall purchasing several Walther PPs & PPKs from the old Sacramento Armoury over 30 years ago, and didn[t discover that they were imported marked until I go home to give them a good cleaning, and found the very small markings on the left side of the frame area, surounding the chamber area of the barrel, which was completely covered by the slide, when it was installed. TH

mrerick · 07-06-2015, 09:53 AM

In response to Eric's question:

Quote:

Originally Posted by cirelaw

Thank You Bill, I was a Trial Attorney for many years~ Were cartridge counters exempt like test pieces? My 1920 carbine has a hidden 'GERMANY' inside on one of the thongs, others have it outside the body. Am I in compliance?

Eric, your Luger came into the country long before the current import regulations were active.

A firearm owner can remove the import markings, but not any added serial number. This can become an issue if the import process assigned a different serial number to the gun than it was originally manufactured with, since removing or altering the serial number would be an ATF issue.

A PDF of the ATF Letter is attached.

Here are the ATF import marking guidelines:

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/firearm...ation-overview

https://www.atf.gov/file/4881/download

Tomathvl · 07-06-2015, 12:29 PM

Marc,
Where does it say that a Firearm owner may remove the import marking? I read the atf files and didn't see where it says that. Could you highlight the section. Also the attached files just leads back to the post.
Thanks, Tom

Ron Wood · 07-06-2015, 02:03 PM

Tom
The permission to remove the import mark on the barrel is in the attached pdf file. depending on how your browser works when you click on the attachment link it may open the link in the task bar at the bottom of the screen. If you then click on that window it will open the letter pdf.

cirelaw · 07-06-2015, 02:19 PM

A removal scar is I believe much more suspect and less desirable~ Like the removal of an old tattoo!!

John Sabato · 07-06-2015, 02:59 PM

Eric, a "removal scar" is a great description. I would consider the import mark part of the gun's personal history. While unmarked guns may demand a premium price, a marked gun would certainly look better than a gun with a removal scar. At least IMHO.

cirelaw · 07-06-2015, 03:14 PM

Thank You John! Just another category of luger from which to chose! All Lugers are born perfect and remain so unless we mess them up~~ You can't repair perfection!!!! Eric

mrerick · 07-06-2015, 03:44 PM

The links I posted lead to the ATF site, and to a PDF file of the ATF letter which is posted on this server.

The Import Mark Ltr spells out the ATF position on removing import markings (including the need to retain the serial number).

I'm not advocating removing marks, just sharing what I have learned about them.

If clicking on the links isn't working for you, check out how your browser is configured.

Marc

07-05-2015, 02:58 PM	#24
AR-50A1 Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Yuma, AZ Posts: 165 Thanks: 40 Thanked 81 Times in 35 Posts	I recently purchased a 1913 Commercial DWM that was in the March 2015 Julia auction that came from the Sturgess collection. Import marked by Simpson Ltd. just on the left lip of the mag well. An interesting side note: This pistol (s/n 71371) was advertised as a 1906 Commercial in the auction (lot 2315). Somebody messed up. Bill Attached Thumbnails

07-05-2015, 09:13 PM	#26
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,986 Thanks: 1,065 Thanked 5,088 Times in 1,674 Posts	I am only guessing. In addition to size and content, the import marking requirements specifies a precise depth of the marking. It looks to me that in order to meet the depth requirement Simpson laser cut a shallow groove in the magazine cutout and then laser engraved the import marks. This made the import marks meet the required depth below the original surface but the marks themselves ended up quite shallow and therefore less noticeable. I think that may have been tiptoeing at the boundary of meeting specifications. I could be all wet bit that is my guess. Whatever the process, bully for Simpson as it preserved the outward appearance of one of the most significant handgun collections ever to be offered to the collecting community. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

07-05-2015, 09:26 PM	#27
cirelaw Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PORT ST LUCIE, FLORIDA Posts: 12,216 Thanks: 6,209 Thanked 4,133 Times in 2,173 Posts	And the plot thickens! I found an interesting blog on point! http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2...nd-conspiracy/ Attached Thumbnails

07-06-2015, 08:57 AM	#33
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	hiding the import markings is nothing new. I recall purchasing several Walther PPs & PPKs from the old Sacramento Armoury over 30 years ago, and didn[t discover that they were imported marked until I go home to give them a good cleaning, and found the very small markings on the left side of the frame area, surounding the chamber area of the barrel, which was completely covered by the slide, when it was installed. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

07-06-2015, 02:03 PM	#36
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,986 Thanks: 1,065 Thanked 5,088 Times in 1,674 Posts	Tom The permission to remove the import mark on the barrel is in the attached pdf file. depending on how your browser works when you click on the attachment link it may open the link in the task bar at the bottom of the screen. If you then click on that window it will open the letter pdf. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

05-06-2015, 12:02 PM	#21
cirelaw Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PORT ST LUCIE, FLORIDA Posts: 12,216 Thanks: 6,209 Thanked 4,133 Times in 2,173 Posts	Bob Simpson wrote me ALL firearms entering this country must be marked! I assume it only applies to those imported after to the 1968 act~ I believe they lose their luger virginity! Much like a non natural luger proof mark! Like adding you initials to a valuable work of art!! ~~I like natural non plastic surgery anything! I guess I'm old fashioned!! PS Bob is a heck of a nice guy along with his family!

05-09-2015, 03:28 PM	#22
Tom Nowling User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: South Fla. Posts: 24 Thanks: 1 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	I own a Benelli B-76 pistol that has neither a US distributor or an import mark on it. When I wrote Benelli about it, they stated it may have been brought in diplomatically or by a US service person. Who knows?? Not that it makes it more valuable, just interesting to me..LOL

07-05-2015, 08:41 PM	#25
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,889 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,281 Times in 423 Posts	If I understand the discussion correctly, Simpson's nice little mag well import mark was determined to be out-of-compliance. Can anybody report authoritatively if that is the case and, if so, what is their current marking practice on Lugers?? --Dwight

07-05-2015, 10:30 PM	#28
cirelaw Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PORT ST LUCIE, FLORIDA Posts: 12,216 Thanks: 6,209 Thanked 4,133 Times in 2,173 Posts	They are lucky as they can afford an awesome piece of machinery. If I represented them I would have my staff point out the markings. This way might prevent buyers remorse! A real pain. I'm sure! Bob and his family are a class act. Leave to them to make harder to enforce the rules! This thread is great as we should check well our purchases~I don't care what anyone says I want a virgin unless it is a Cartridge Counter~ Eric

07-05-2015, 10:32 PM	#29
AR-50A1 Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Yuma, AZ Posts: 165 Thanks: 40 Thanked 81 Times in 35 Posts	Eric, Thank you for doing this research. A very informative article. It will be interesting to see where all of this leads to. Bill

07-05-2015, 10:45 PM	#31
cirelaw Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PORT ST LUCIE, FLORIDA Posts: 12,216 Thanks: 6,209 Thanked 4,133 Times in 2,173 Posts	Thank You Bill, I was a Trial Attorney for many years~ Were cartridge counters exempt like test pieces? My 1920 carbine has a hidden 'GERMANY' inside on one of the thongs, others have it outside the body. Am I in compliance?

07-06-2015, 12:29 PM	#35
Tomathvl User Join Date: May 2004 Location: Milan, IN Posts: 363 Thanks: 3 Thanked 48 Times in 19 Posts	Marc, Where does it say that a Firearm owner may remove the import marking? I read the atf files and didn't see where it says that. Could you highlight the section. Also the attached files just leads back to the post. Thanks, Tom

07-06-2015, 02:19 PM	#37
cirelaw Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PORT ST LUCIE, FLORIDA Posts: 12,216 Thanks: 6,209 Thanked 4,133 Times in 2,173 Posts	A removal scar is I believe much more suspect and less desirable~ Like the removal of an old tattoo!!

07-06-2015, 02:59 PM	#38
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Eric, a "removal scar" is a great description. I would consider the import mark part of the gun's personal history. While unmarked guns may demand a premium price, a marked gun would certainly look better than a gun with a removal scar. At least IMHO. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

07-06-2015, 03:14 PM	#39
cirelaw Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PORT ST LUCIE, FLORIDA Posts: 12,216 Thanks: 6,209 Thanked 4,133 Times in 2,173 Posts	Thank You John! Just another category of luger from which to chose! All Lugers are born perfect and remain so unless we mess them up~~ You can't repair perfection!!!! Eric

07-06-2015, 03:44 PM	#40
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,900 Thanks: 1,370 Thanked 3,094 Times in 1,503 Posts	The links I posted lead to the ATF site, and to a PDF file of the ATF letter which is posted on this server. The Import Mark Ltr spells out the ATF position on removing import markings (including the need to retain the serial number). I'm not advocating removing marks, just sharing what I have learned about them. If clicking on the links isn't working for you, check out how your browser is configured. Marc __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.