Virginia shooting

[HerbZ]

lew1,

I was covering my own butt, for where I wrote: "The shooting was still in progress when several guns were present on the campus and more rushing onto campus every minute." Some of the commentators I've seen on TV have questioned why it was that the police were hunkered down there behind cars and phone poles while the shooting was still in progress inside the building. I didn't want to be taken as being on that side of things for anything, and I didn't for a moment think that anyone else here was either.

To be more plain spoken, I've nothing but the greatest of respect for all men and women in law enforcement, and most especially for those who take the tough choice and training to become part of a SWAT team. My main point was that this tragic situation called for more than regular police patrol personnel, let alone, as others have seemed to suggest, a civilian with a Conceal Carry permit and a pistol.

I hope you understand where I'm coming from on this now.

[Ron Smith]

Just heard on the news that some students told the instructor in one of Cho's classes. That they refused to attend class as long as Cho was in the class room. The instructor repeatedly requested that someone, including Law Enforcement check him out.

He was, reportedly a very weird and spooky individual who was avoided by many students. Some students upon hearing of the shootings, instantly knew it was Cho.

[Jack Lawman]

Originally posted by Ron Smith
He was, reportedly a very weird and spooky individual who was avoided by many students. Some students upon hearing of the shootings, instantly knew it was Cho.

Being wierd and spooky is not a crime and does not meet an objective standard for a 4th amendment intrusion:

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

I could fill a ledger with the names of wierd and spooky people I would like to "check out"... however, their civil rights preclude such action. It is very likely that many members of this forum would be described as "wierd, spooky, armed, and dangerous" by certain family members or neighbors.

I am not criticizing any individual comments. The sole intent of this post is to highlight the relationship of the 1st, 2nd, and 4th ammendments.

When discussing this issue, it is best to keep a wide perspective. In VT case, a 4th ammendment intrusion by the government on Cho may have prevented his 4th ammendment intrusion on his victims.

It is a very slippery slope.

Jack

P.S. My opinion on the matter is that Americans across the board need to take their safety as an increasingly personal responsibility, as opposed to relying on the government for security.

[Dante Di Pietro Jr.]

I was just thinking that this sort of thing is what happens to a people who remove God from their lives, this lost demented soul probably would have thought more if he said the Lords Prayer before class. This countrys headed down a path of total moral and spirtual desintergration so lets take a look at ourselves. Remove God from schools, government, media, our daily lives and we end up with a country we deserve. Our leaders have outlawed God, are guns next? I think our leaders need to be outlawed. Im going to keep our God and my gun close no matter what the political correct thinking masses dictate. Thats my take on this tragedy.

[HerbZ]

Dante Di Pietro Jr.

Bless you! I whole heartedly agree with where you're coming from in principle. But I'm afraid I must disagree with you on some of the particulars you may be suggesting.

I want my Government to do all it can to insure that I and all my fellow citizens are safe and free to call upon God and pray, whenever we may want and wherever we may be. But I don't think it is right, proper or fitting for my Government to mandate, or even just suggest, by what name God should be called by, or what prayer or prayers should be used, or where and when it may happen.

(There's a lot of confusion that has been going 'round this country for some time now concerning Freedom of Religion. And I've my own well formed opinions 'bout it. But I got a nagging feeling like a hang fire in the back of my brain that tells me this forum is not the place for it.)

[Jack Lawman]

Originally posted by HerbZ
And I've my own well formed opinions 'bout it. But I got a nagging feeling like a hang fire in the back of my brain that tells me this forum is not the place for it.)

We went down that road a while ago... very interesting, very over:

http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthre...d&pagenumber=1

Jack

[Dante Di Pietro Jr.]

Herbz and Jack, My comments were about God not religon relating to my opinion on the killings. I really dont care if anyone disagrees or agrees with me.

[Steinar]

..I'm a mix of these.
So meaningless, so much pain for those who lost someone close. It can happen anywhere at any time, but I don't want to spend my life being afraid of it to happen, just prepared that it might.

Personally I think it's a bad idea to release the video he took, as it might encourage other mentally disturbed people to do the same. Publicity is not always a good thing when it comes to these things..

[lew1]

Perhaps we need to go back to the old time mental hospitals that had bars on the windows and to the time when people used to be sent to them and then had a difficult time in getting out.

May not totally solve the problem, but i would sure reduce it greatly.

[HerbZ]

Sure, we could try having mental asylums again, only not like we use to do it. We might be able to do a better job of it now, with better mental health methods of treatment, new drugs and other kinds of new therapies, and more humane surrounding so people would be more willing to sign their family members into them before a court order was necessary to do so.

Whose gonna pay for those metal hospitals?

What do we do, increase the taxes on something or start taxing something we don't already tax?

[Steinar]

Originally posted by lew1
Perhaps we need to go back to the old time mental hospitals that had bars on the windows and to the time when people used to be sent to them and then had a difficult time in getting out.

May not totally solve the problem, but i would sure reduce it greatly.

..or medicate them far into Sesame Street for those 'beond repair' cases (likely with Cho) and other various ways of threatment where it's still hope.

Patients probably react differently to different ways of threatment, making it a difficult (and dangerous) job. So all my respect to those who have mental health care as their line of work, who know how many lives they have saved..

[lew1]

Presently, you cannot force them to take medications. Secondly, the system here does not consider anyone beyond repair. Thirdly, they are living in the neighborhoods with everyone else, so there is no one to medicate them. Fourthly, people consider it to be a violation of their rights if info was to be given out concerning them or their condition (and there are laws that prohibit the release of that information).

[Steinar]

lew, things are pretty much the same on this site of the pond, no one is 'beyond repair' by medical term.
Naturly the use force is strictly prohibited, can only be used in very special cases with the acceptance from trustee/guardian, or in severve dangerous situations. Same goes for medication.. Think that's a problem with cases like Cho, how to prevent these tragedies. For me that's more important than what to do when it happens.

[lew1]

morgan

As I mentioned there is an easy way to prevent or lessen.

But you cannot invade their privacy. So one person's right of privacy is more important than 32 lives.

But then if you have been classified as a sex offender (and I am using that term loosely) - even 30 years ago, then you have no right of privacy. Your name and address is posted on official web sites with a map of the area so people can locate the person.

Which is more important - the name and address of a 18 year old kid (senior in high school) who has sex with a 16 year old girl (sophomore in high school -- or -- someone who has the potential to be dangerous to the unsuspecting public ???

[zeke1312]

You can vote here:

http://www.abcnews.go.com/us/beseenb...pup?id=3046132

Interesting:

www.roanoke.com/editorail...ywb/80510

[vtwoodchuck]

My son teaches 5th grade and is 6'4" and 230 lbs. There are a number of kids in 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th grade who swear at the teachers, throw books, hit teachers etc. When sent to the time out room, the aid tells the kids that if the teacher would have handled things differently or said something nicer to them, they wouldn't act as they do. The parents also blame the teachers, in front of their kids. You couldn't pay me enough to teach school. Amen to letting GOD back into the school. The other teachers get my son to restrain kids because they cant control them. I pray for our teachers daily as well as for the children who try their best. I also pray for the killers parents. They must be going through hell. Doug

[HerbZ]

It won't matter if you can get God back into the classroom, if He's not already in a student's home. And you're just putting the responsibility for one more task on the already overburden classroom teacher that should have been done by the parents before they ever sent their kid to school. There may be a lot wrong with many of our public school systems (I'm not arguing that), but they're just another symptom, not the actual problem.

[383 magnum]

I was shocked one person could kill so many people. While I am not judging the victims of mass shootings, it reminded me of when the late Jeff Cooper said that during these kinds of shootings, the victims cowered while the goblin shot them. He said you should resist, with your bare hands if necessary.
If six of those students had stood up, grabbed their desks or chairs to use as shields, and charged the shooter, he would have been lucky to have dropped two of them before being tackled and disarmed.
I have no idea what I would do in that situation, but I hope, that like the people on Flight 93, I would have the courage to fight back.

[Ron Smith]

Herb,

Well said...

Ron

[lugerholsterrepair]

Matt..Having been at war for two years in my youth I can tell you it is difficult to get even a trained Soldier to charge live fire. In the confines of a small classroom, once the shooter is in the door, all cooperation for a mass assault falls away in confusion as the shooter finds and shoots the first target. The confusion and noise plus the shock of the appearance of a killer in your face will cause all but the bravest to fall back.
There are only few opportunities during an assult..reloading and if he were to try and breech a doorway that is closed. If he were to stick a hand through a door his arm could be broken by a chair or other heavy object.
Remember these students are mere children. The mature adults on flight 93 had age and time. Once they discovered they had nothing to lose they parleyed and came up with a plan, then executed it.
These Virginia Tech students were overwhelmed with deadly force quickly. An ambush so to speak.The few who had some time did block doors or escaped thru windows.
In many instances of large groups guarded by a few with weapons it would seem reasonable to overpower their guards. Look at how many Jews were assembled and killed by just a few.
The Battan death March. Dozens more...Hard to say what any of us might do given these circumstances. Like you I pray for courage should I need it. Jerry Burney