Second luger - shooter...key holing issues

[Sieger]

David.

If you would search my name, I recently posted some highly accurate and most importantly, highly functional handloads, developed just for the 9mm Luger, on this site.

I've developed one lead bullet load that will shoot 6 to one ragged hole at 25 yards. Lead is accurate in a Luger, if you learn just a few basics!!!

If you would like to save some time and frustration with cast, just PM me and I'll be glad to share my experience with you.


Sieger

[Sieger]

Originally Posted by bubbapug1

My loads with red dot were at Maximum (4.3 grains). I went to 4.1 grains and the tumbling was lessened, but not by much.

All factory ammo works, as do reloads with 124 grain Zero FMJ bullets. I just have issues now with extreme plated bullets.

I also am going to try a bit slower powder than the red dot, like 231 or tru-blu since I have that in stock. I also loaded up some zero fmjs with the red dot.

The gun has great accuracy except with the plated. The plated bullets mic out fine, I have to think it has something to do with the plating material versus the jacket materials or perhaps the speed of the red dot as the reloads I tested with were loaded with 231.

Time will tell, but its a great excuse to go to the range more often.

The 4.1 red dot load can barely cycle my 1911's in 9mm.

Hi,

Back in 1979, before I accidently discovered that medium burning rate powders are just the ticket for Lugers, and then verified this through my research of the original German texts, I loaded Red Dot quite successfully at 3.8 to 3.9 grains for the 124 grain bullets.

Generally, Lugers do not shoot accurately with hot loads. In fact, hot loads will eventually cause serious damage to a Luger.

My best two powders for FMJ bullets are Power Pistol and IMR's SR4756. For cast, Accurate #5 has accounted for some fantasticly accurate loads. Would you believe 6 out of 6 touching on a regular basis!?!

Plated bullets are typically "soft", so I would load them as if they were cast lead. By the way, there is no guaranty that these plated bullets will ever shoot well in your Luger, so if you don't have a large stock of them on hand, may be this is good!

Just some thoughts.


Sieger

[Patronen]

I was reading on another forum that SR4756 along with a few other powders will be discontinued this year

[DavidJayUden]

There is fearful talk among trap shooters that some of our "special" powders are being dropped too.
dju

[Sieger]

Originally Posted by Patronen

I was reading on another forum that SR4756 along with a few other powders will be discontinued this year

Hi,

I'm not surprised to hear that, as all of my favorite powders have always been "dropped or discontinued". Remember H-450?

The problem is that the industry has consolidated. Now there is one company that either owns or is distributing almost everything. This is not good for the shooting public, as perceived "duplicate" products are more often than not, dropped for financial reasons. I guess the attitude is "take it or leave it" rather the "replacement" product shoots worth a darn or not!!!

Very sad indeed.

What's to be dropped next, IMR 4895? After all, H 4895 has been around for years, hasn't it! Yea.


Sieger

[rhuff]

You may have just discovered that your Luger does not like plated bullets!! Before I walked away from loading them for your luger(I am hardheaded), I would definitely try different powders.....I have had good luck with Unique and Power Pistol. Both are a medium burn powder.

I use Red Dot in some of my 30 Luger loads, and it performs very well for me. Bullseye does also. A different caliber in a different Luger. A lot of variables there.

Keep us informed as to your progress....I like to know what reloading components work for other Luger shooters. One can never have too much info on Lugers.

[Patronen]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...odgdon-in-2014

This will effect those out there that have worked loads up using these powders for both Lugers and other firearms.

[bubbapug1]

I did a test with 115 grain HP's and red dot, and the gun works great. Its now a matter of finding a powder to push the Xtreme plated bullets. I will use some of the data from this thread.

I'd like to get the xtremes to work as I have 10,000 of them (unloaded) on hand.

Thanks for the help.

[Sieger]

Originally Posted by bubbapug1

I did a test with 115 grain HP's and red dot, and the gun works great. Its now a matter of finding a powder to push the Xtreme plated bullets. I will use some of the data from this thread.

I'd like to get the xtremes to work as I have 10,000 of them (unloaded) on hand.

Thanks for the help.

Hi,

You might want to try my lightest target load for the Luger, that being 3.6 to 3.8 grains of Bullseye for both the 115 and 124 grain bullets. If this doesn't work, and you can't find a combination that will, you might consider selling your 10K of plated bullets to someone that can appreciate them.

Sieger

[rhuff]

You know that there is nothing wrong with your Luger because of your result with the JHP bullets. That gives you a base line, and a standard. I would try the medium burners if the fast burners(Red Dot, Bullseye, etc.) give you dismal results. I have a fairly large amount of Xtreme plated bullets in different calibers, and am producing adequate/acceptable accuracy results with them. They do NOT like to be pushed too fast, as one can actually peel the plating off of the lead core. 11-1200FPS is the max velocity for them.

[bubbapug1]

One great side benefit of buying the luger and having issues with it shooting plated bullets was the discovery that the loads I was shooting aren't accurate in any of my 9mm guns. I am about to start NRA bullseye shooting and its imperative the loads are accurate. While my STI Edge might not see tumbling bullets at 25 yards, it still won't shoot a 3" group with them from a rest.

So I did scale back the red dot, and will try a slower powder to give me better accuracy with the plated bullets.

Thank god for problems, they help us learn.

[rhuff]

Be sure and keep us informed as to your progress. Most all of us on this forum enjoy learning new things and how problems were solved. Good luck.

[bubbapug1]

I loaded up 50 rounds of 9mm with the same Xtreme 124 plated RN bullets and 5.8 grains of Ramshot True Blue powder. True Blue is very very fine and dense, and takes up less than half the cartridge case.

The rounds worked perfectly. The tumbling stopped. The load also worked great in my STI Edge, which requires stout loads to feed well.

True blue is a slowish pistol powder according to the charts.

Can anyone explain to me why a slower powder stopped the problem?

[mrerick]

I can't be sure, but I wonder if the early burn rate could effect how the ogive curved surface of the bullet engages with the rifling. If the jump from the cartridge case through the chamber to the throat engagement of the rifling was unstable (the propulsion was not evenly flat against the bullet's back surface) that might do it...

Marc

[Sieger]

Originally Posted by bubbapug1

I loaded up 50 rounds of 9mm with the same Xtreme 124 plated RN bullets and 5.8 grains of Ramshot True Blue powder. True Blue is very very fine and dense, and takes up less than half the cartridge case.

The rounds worked perfectly. The tumbling stopped. The load also worked great in my STI Edge, which requires stout loads to feed well.

True blue is a slowish pistol powder according to the charts.

Can anyone explain to me why a slower powder stopped the problem?

Hi,

Though I've never tried True Blue, it appears to be a medium, slow/slow, slow powder on the powder burning rate chart I consulted.

Is your load accurate? If not, drop down several tenths and work up slowly until you see the groups tighten.

I'm glad your bullets seem to be responding positively to this powder.

You should probably forget about trying to figure out why this combination is working so well for you, as success with this combination has been a just reward for your efforts.


Sieger

[bubbapug1]

I think I want to understand why a lower pressure upon firing fixed the issue. . I should also note the accuracy of the true blue load is good on the Luger, and it's also easier to shoot in the edge. Perhaps in a rest both the red dot and the true blue loads would be the same , perhaps not, but free hand I can shoot smaller groups with the true blue. Free hand may be subjective, and a function of an early recoil impulse.

But my guess is there is an issue with the bullet with the red dot, and it's deleterious effects in the Luger also might be carrying over into my other. 9mm pistols.

Underlying knowledge of problems casts light on all subsequent endeavors and prevents us from making the same errors twice. Also, this issue may have carry over issues for other and all loads which could lead to better accuracy for rifle too, and help me at the 1000 yard matches...although I think wind reading is probably more critical there.

[rhuff]

I am very glad to hear that you have found a solution to your dilemma. I have never loaded with Ramshot True Blue powder, so can't comment on that. It is most definitely a slower burner than the Red Dot. If you are doing all of your accuracy evaluation on firing free handed,rather that bench rest/sandbags/Ransom rest, then I am not sure that you have proved all that can be proven. If this new powder is giving you a different/improved(to you) recoil impulse than the Red dot powder, perhaps that is conducive to better free hand accuracy. To test for true accuracy differences in loadings, one needs to remove all of the human factor possible.

Sounds as though you have made some real progress, and that is what makes handloading so special, at least to me.

[Schutzenbob]

I've been trying to make sense of you 9mm key-holing with a hot load, but shooting well with a lighter load. It could be that; #1 the main spring in your pistol is weaker than it should be. #2 the hotter load is causing the breach to open prematurely and so the pressure is dropping off too soon. Just a guess.

[bubbapug1]

I think it has to do with the bullet getting distorted or canting in the worn barrel in the Luger, and when the powder is slowed down the bullet has a better chance of starting on the right track and engraving into the grooves better. But that's a guess too. I am trying to figure out how I can test a couple of theories to try to find out what is going on.

I know one thing, that this is not just isolated to a luger and red dot, but all loads are affected somewhat by powder burn speeds and also plated bullets might be more susceptible to distortion than plated...but again, that too is a theory and needs to be tested.

I like some of the testing methodology in the book Rifle Accuracy, and how he exaggerates certain issues to prove his theories. the guy really debunks a lot of reloading dogma rather quickly.

[Sieger]

Originally Posted by Schutzenbob

I've been trying to make sense of you 9mm key-holing with a hot load, but shooting well with a lighter load. It could be that; #1 the main spring in your pistol is weaker than it should be. #2 the hotter load is causing the breach to open prematurely and so the pressure is dropping off too soon. Just a guess.

Hi,

1) The main spring isn't activated, to any real extent, until the bullet actually exits the barrel. The toggle remains firmly in battery until then.

2) Same answer as 1) above

Perhaps a mechanical explanation would be, simply a overly soft bullet combined with an overly hot load that is severly over running the rifling twist.

This is my best explanation. .

What has been your experience here?

Sieger