H E L P - Please. British Markings on a WW-I Luger

[John Sabato]

[Johnny Peppers]

The proofs are British commercial proofs. They indicate that the pistol was sold commercially at some time in England. It could have been sold in country, or could have been bought by a British arms dealer and sold in some other country through England. Either way, it was required to be proofed before it could be sold. The letters and numbers in the crossed sceptre indicate the year of proof and the inspector. The OB on your pistol dates the proofing to 1963.

[Luke]

Tom,

I have been over the gun with a magnifying glass. I cannot find "Not British Make" anywhere on the receiver or frame. On the right side of the receiver I only find the standard two German Army proof marks along with the Imperial Eagle, just like all of my other WW-I Lugers.

Luke

[Johnny Peppers]

Tom,

The NOT ENGLISH MAKE requirement was dropped with the Proof Act of 1955.

I agree with Johnny, I had a similar Brithish proofed WWI Luger at one time that was purchased in England by a US Serviceman around 1955 and brought to the US. The pistol was in near mint condition inside and out with the exception that is had been "painted" with the British Military finish. I can only speculate that particular was used or held in reserve by the British Government at some point in it's life.

I can add that the British proof laws were ever changing in regards to details on exactly what markings were and were not stmaped. These chnages, when known, can also be used to time bracket the date of proofing. They are well documented but I do not have a web link handy to refer you too ...they are also referneced in many books that deal with proof markings of various countries.

[unspellable]

I have a Luger similar to this. A few days ago I asked much the same question and received no response, perhaps poor choice os title.


You will note that my Luger appears to be an M1920 commercial with no trace of German military acceptance marks or any other German marks. It has the 1954 and onwards Birmingham proof but also bears the 1904 to 1954 Birmingham view marks.


If this was an Interarms deal from somewhere between 1950 and 1980 where was the pistol hiding before that? No non-British mark on it?


The description from the previous posting is below.


unspellable


First, this specimen has replacement grips so we will take them off and lay them aside. The magazine has an aluminum bottom plate with a German military serial number that does not match the pistol so we will also lay that aside.


The pistol itself has a DWM monogram, a 1917 chamber date, and a German military serial number. There is a lanyard loop and a stock lug. "Loaded" and "Safe" markings are in German. Excepting the barrel, which we will come to later, all parts match. There are no German proof marks or acceptance marks, nor any evidence of them having been ground off. All the proof marks, etc, are English. On the left front frame where an M1920 might say "Germany" it says "NOT ENGLISH MAKE" in all upper case but rather small letters.


The barrel is 100 mm (military length) and chambered for 9 mm. There is no serial number and no German marking on the barrel. The underside of the barrel has the usual English proof bit about caliber, case length, and pressure.


Barrel, frame. receiver, and breech block all bear a crown over BNP which is the Birmingham proof mark used from 1954 onwards. Receiver and breech block bear a crown over circle with BV inside. This is a Birmingham view mark used from 1904 to 1954.


On the underside of the barrel there are crossed scepters with P on the left, 2 on the bottom, and 8 on the right. On the frame just in front of the safety there is another crossed scepter with 8 on the left, 4 on the bottom, B on the right, and a dot on the top.


The bluing on the barrel is a perfect match to the rest of the pistol. Take down lever, trigger, magazine latch, ejector, safety lever, and safety bar are strawed. The extractor, sear, and sear spring are blue.


Bluing is at 98% and to my eye there is no evidence of polishing. There is a slight discoloratio0n in the bluing in the milled out area at the right rear of the receiver that locks as if the chemical action was retarded by some contamination such as a faint trace of oil.


OK guys, what do you make of it?


Unspellable

Dear All - a little more on the British markings. The 15 tons per square inch is a very high proof for this type of pistol. Civilian weapons, that is, weapons sold through dealers to the public, and NOT military sales, are usually proofed at 9.5 tons. Service military weapons, including our Browning SLP, were proofed at 13.5 tpsi. My own 1918 DWM was proofed at 9.5 tpsi - commercial proof. My byf 42, however, was proofed at 13.5 tpsi - military proof, but was not stamped, at my request. Instead, I obtained a proof test certificate to accompany the weapon wherever it goes. At the time of proofing, Britain was using Imperial dimensions, hence the .752" equivalent to 9mm.


TF

[Johnny Peppers]

The BV in a circle under a crown was the view mark of Birmingham of the Proof Act of 1925-1955. The view mark of the Proof Act of 1904-1925 was the BV under a crown with no circle. The NOT ENGLISH MAKE indicates that it was proofed under the Proof Act of 1925-1955. From your description it appears that your pistol was proofed prior to 1955, had the barrel changed after 1955, and was proofed again.

Are you sure that the marking on the right side of the sceptre is an 8? It should be a letter and that would be a B. This would date it to 1964.

If the other marking with the 8 on the left is actually a B, this would date this marking to 1951.

for new information on a new thread.


ed

[Johnny Peppers]

The measurement used was in proofing was long tons or 2240 lbs. per square inch.

Proof laws of certain countries were recognized in England, but the United States did not have official proof regulations. All commercial pistols exported from the US to England were subject to British proof. Military weapons sent to England under the Lend Lease Act were exempt from commercial proof until they were released by the British government for commercial sale. This is the reason we find M1 Rifles and 1911/1911A1 pistol with British commercial proofs here in the US.

[Luke]

[unspellable]

One question still bothers me. If these Lugers were so marked in the 1950 to 1980 period, where were they before that? How come mine has no German proof markings or German markings of any kind other than the chamber date, military style serial number, and the DWM monogram? From 1917 to 1950 it had to be hiding some where. Was it hiding with no proofs at all on it? No "Germany" marking? I've seen M1920's without the "Germany" marking, but I've never seen one without the German commercial proof mark. I've also seen WWI era pistols with both military acceptance marks and commercial proof marks, although I regard these as "reworks" rather than true M1920's..


unspellable

[Johnny Peppers]

The information concerning the proofs and how and when they were applied is a matter of British record. Anything else would be pure speculation, but with your receiver bearing a 1917 chamber date and military style serial numbers I would have a strong feeling that it also had German acceptance marks at one time. Speculation again, but the German proofs and acceptance marks may have been scrubbed to "clean it up". The fact that it does not have GERMANY but does have British commercial proofs indicates that it came to the US during the '50's or 60's.

I agree that the surplus military Lugers sent to the US during the 1920's are not 1920 Commercials. All you have to do is read the Luger advertisements of the day to see that they were selling used military Lugers as well as new Lugers. The GERMANY stamp was applied to all pistols whether new or used that were coming to the US.

[unspellable]

For my money, once a P08 had military acceptance marks stamped on it it became a military weapon. If rebarreled, refinsihed, refurbished, or whatever it is still an ex-military. True M1920's were made of unused military P08 over run parts but never had acceptance marks on them. The key points being "unused" and no accepance marks.


As for my "English" Luger it's hard to imagine it ever had acceptance marks. Grinding them off would leave traces. Even if a really good job the side would be "out of flat". I don't think there was a German proof mark either but I'll look again. I have been looking at this through a 10X eye loupe. As for the "GERMANY" marking I've seen more than one M1920 or WWI ex-military that without it.


M1920's typically have the chamber date ground off but there have been exceptions. The chamber grinding job was quite well done in most cases but looks a litle rough on occasion.


I'm wondering if it's fair to say the M1920's came from DWM while the various and sundry ex-militaries came from the "cottage industry"?


One other question. Is the British proof house pressure marking the proof pressure or the working pressure? I have an English rifle on which the proof marks indicate the working load of 40 gr cordite and 300 gr bullet. There is no mention of actual pressure.


unspellable

[Johnny Peppers]

The proof and acceptance marks are not all that deep, and anyone with any experience at all would not have ground out the markings. The entire side of the frame would have been worked down to keep everything straight. I helped the local gunsmith prepare a Luger receiver for rebluing which had rusted and pitted from poor storage. I had a hard time taking out the minor pitting without removing the marks. If done expertly on your pistol, you would not be able to tell that the marking had been removed.

I have never seen an explaination of the system of commercial proofing used by the British at the London or Birmingham Proof House. The Model 1911A1's were proofed at 7 tons (15,700 lbs.) per square inch, and the M1 Rifle at 18 tons (40,300 lbs) per square inch. The US arsenals routinely proofed the M1 Rifle at 70,000 lbs per square inch which was approximately 50% over standard military ammo. Also,the tons per square inch were the proof loads used in the proofing.

[unspellable]

I can through one bit of light on the pressure question. In the US the CUP unist of pressure was measured by a copper crusher and piston in a small hole in the chamber side acting in the radial direction. In the UK the pressure was measured with a crusher behind the breech face with the cartridge case lightly oiled. Thus the British system measures the back thrust. The two systems yeild different numbers and the US system typically yields a bigger number than the british for the same load.


These days in the US they use a transducer for direct PSI measurements and get still a third and higher yet number.


In years past the British proof house marked the gun with the working load and no indication of pressure. Hence my question, when they mark the pressure, is it proof or working pressure?


unspellable

[Johnny Peppers]

A high number model 1903 Springfield or an M1 Rifle will withstand pressures in the 125,000 to 140,000 lbs. per square inch range, but the ammo is loaded to slightly less than 50,000 lbs. per square inch range. The proof load was around 70,000 lbs. per square inch, but there was no official US standard that required the rifles be marked with anything other than the P which indicated the weapon had been proofed. As London and Birmingham Proof Houses were official proof houses, I would have to assume that the markings indicated the proof loads used to test to British standards as the working pressures would be much greater. The London or Birmingham proof marking should guarantee that the weapon was safe with any standard cartridge loadings. It would be beyond most users knowledge to know what pressures the standard cartridges were loaded to so as to determine if they were within the working pressure of the weapon.