Original "Black Widow" Luger Grips - a photo study

[John Sabato]

There has been much discussion about the appearance and construction of the black bakelite grips that were used on so called "Black Widow" Mauser Lugers...


These photographs are of both sides of the grips that came on my byf 41 coded Luger that is shown in the Owners's Corner. I had the pistol refinished, but the grips are untouched as they came on the pistol.


I purchased this pistol in the 1970's from the GI who captured it and brought it home from WW2. The capture story accompanies the photos of the Luger under my name in the Owner's Corner.


It had not been modified while he owned it, and not fired except right after he got home when he showed it to his family and friends. It sat undisturbed for most of it's life, in storage on the top shelf of his bedroom closet. Knowing this history I believe it fair to assume that these are the original grips that were installed on this Luger at the Mauser factory. For those of you who have a Black Widow Luger and are curious if your grips are of the original type or are reproductions, these photos should be some help.


None of the reproduction plastic grips that I have seen in my life even remotely look like the originals when you get up close. The checkering is always inferior, frequently much coarser, and/or the material the grips are made of is obviously modern plastic and not the same as these that are made of bakelite... Original grips are hard, and shiney in appearance.


The original grips have threaded holes on the interior surface that happens to be the same thread as the grip screws and many here on the Lugerforum believe that this was done to have a place to put the screws so you don't lose them during cleaning. Some have speculated that these threaded holes were also used to remove the grips from the mold in the manufacturing process... I am not aware thateither of these theories has been substantiated in print such as in a German field manual or manufacturers documentation.


If you download the photos and examine them under high magnification in a graphics viewer program such as Paint Shop Pro ( www.jasc.com ) these photos are high resolution and you can see excellent detail...


Due to the large size (about 500K each) of these images I was unable to upload them to the Lugerforum server so they are hosted elsewhere, at least for now. Perhaps Dok will move them to the Lugerforum Server with my explanation as an addition to the FAQ under general information.


For your viewing pleasure, click on this link to see the grips... (Be prepared to wait for the long download)


regards,


John Sabato



Black Widow Grips - Detailed Photos Click Here!

[lugerholsterrepair]

John, Thanks for your excellent photo's.


While the threded holes in the back of the grips have not been substantiated anywhere in German manuals I think the proof is in the methods. Without the holes there is no way to remove the grips from the molds they were made in. On subsequent grips that do not have the holes there are gouge marks where the holes should be where the grips were pried out. The grip screw theory is pretty self evident as the threded holes are exactly like the grip screws and you have to admit this is a handy place for the grip screws! Maybe someday this will appear in print...Thanks again. Jerry Burney

[Luke]

Great Job. Excellent for reference I have saved mine to hard drive. Thanks

[Marvin]

John,


Thanks for the photo of the repro grips. In an earlier posting, I noted the bad quality of the checkering as the best way to tell most of the repro grips. I just wonder when someone will make a correct mold and even have the "threads" on the backside. At the going price for a nice set of BW grips in the neighborhood of $125-150, a high quality repro would sell well to the more "dishonest" type folks.


Marvin

[Luke]

John,

I have a pair of those ! ! !

They came on the first Luger I bought; a "Black Widow" which I found in a gun show. That "dealer" sure saw me coming. I believe that someone told me that these are cheap Russian or East German repros. They are made of bakelite, not the soft plastic type you can get from Sarco. Fortunately, the Luger was an okay purchase.

Luke

John,


Thanks for your time to post those wonderfully detailed photos.


I have a '41 bfy BW coming to me in a couple of weeks and will be sure I take the grips off and look, before I do anything else !!! Guess I should smell them, too, as another Forum meber suggested a few days back...


Grateful...

To test the theory that the threaded holes were also used to remove the grips from their moldings, can the Owner's of some of the 1929 Swiss Berns with red,brown, or black plastic grips also look to see if their grip holes are threaded.


If yes, this might say the Swiss had the same need to remove the grips from their moldings...and came up with the same threading solution...


Just some wild speculation by a beginner...

[Luke]

A better view shows the two not to be identical, but very similar. Any thoughts on the manufacturing process which produced these?




http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/Jo...omparison2.jpg

[John Sabato]

Check out this merged view of the machine marks on your grips and mine... You should be able to see the section I have overlayed onto the first grip by the color change... These machine mark DO line up...


If these were bullets, I would say we have a match. I DO think that your grips came out of EXACTLY the same mold that mine did...but based on the prominence of the marks, more than likely one set of grips preceded the other by many numbers of production since the mold does show some wear between the two.


Nice call Luke! what do the rest of you think??


regards,


John




http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/Gr...comparison.jpg

John,

If I remember correctly, This thread is not the standard metric thread because Lugers used the British Whitworth Thread on the grip screws.

I seem to remember that it had something to do with some Automatic Screw Machines invented in England by Whitworth that were so good that the Germans purchased some of these machines to Manufacture Luger Grip Screws.

This thread was designed for high strength,heat treated screws. It was also excellently adapted for use in molded phenolic and bakelite type plastics.

ViggoG

[John Sabato]

as I recall, I believe that the reason the thread was British Whitworth is because the finest machinery available at the time was ONLY available in English measurements and that the original Luger manufacturing equipment was in fact English or even American made. It wasn't just for the screw threads. I envision that all the metric dimensions were hand converted from the metric system in the manufacturing process. Perhaps one of the members with a good reference library can verify this...


regards,


John Sabato

[Gilly]

I finally took my BYF42 out last night and looked closely at the grips. Mine look like yours John, with a border around the checkering and checkering that looks sharp and crisp. The border is shiney, although showing a bit of use, and when you examine under a light you can see lots of shine in the area between the checkered diamonds. The threaded holes in the back of the grips are also at opposite ends like yours. Your information was informative for a newbie, thank you.David

John,

I did not intend to imply that the whitworth machines were chosen for the type od thread,

But to the exact opposite the whitworth threads were a product og the purchase of the Whitworth Machines.

Even as late as the mid 40's the Brits held firmly to their own standards and almost never produced other thread types for any reason.

We had a few go rounds with them over this well on up into the 50's when we were contracted "Gov'mt to Gov'mt" to perform certain aero-research for them.

ViggoG