Ammunition

lightfoot · 04-05-2005, 08:17 PM

I have some ammunition that I believe may be for the Luger. A picture is attached. I have found some info on it and know that it is an iron core bullet. Each package holds 16 rounds. One is full and one has 10 rounds. It is German and was manufactured 1941 -1942. Does anyone have more facts on this stuff? Here are the sites where I found info.

http://www.landofborchardt.com/ammo.html#dwm1

http://cartridgecollectors.org/intro9mm/

thanks,

Edward Tinker · 04-05-2005, 08:44 PM

I could be wrong, but it is either sub-machine gun or proof firing ammo.

Ed

Steinar · 04-06-2005, 04:53 AM

Hi! They look different from WW2 Luger ammo I have..
But they are both packed in boxes with 16 rounds and have iron core (quite normal for that age). A picture of the butt might help

Vlim · 04-06-2005, 08:58 AM

Hi,

The shortage of raw materials, especially copper and lead, forced the Germans to use other materials instead. They heavily relied on the iron slag core (Sintereisenkern) as a substitute.

This was labeled as 'Pistolenpatrone m. 08', thus useable in the P08, P38, submachineguns, etc...

The primers were made by 'dnf', Rheinische-Westfaelische Sprengstoff AG, Stadeln plant near Nuernberg.
No reference for the 'fag' ordnance code.

The bullets with lacquered iron cases usually had a warning on the boxes that they were only limitedly useable for the P08. Steel casings were difficult to extract from the P08.

Can you give us some codes on the bullet bases?

Edward Tinker · 04-06-2005, 11:16 AM

The "black" tip doesn't mean anything for WW2 ammo?

Ed

lightfoot · 04-06-2005, 01:57 PM

The text at the bottom of the picture is what is on the label on the box.

The head stamp has 4 markings: St+ fag 42 2

The bullet measures .353 at the neck of the case.

Vlim · 04-06-2005, 02:50 PM

Hi Ed,

Yes, this is the famed "Black Widow" ammo

....

St+ is the 'stahl' or 'steel' code. Are the cases steel or brass? If they have 'St' on the bottom, I'd suspect them to be steel cases.

Paul L · 04-06-2005, 03:52 PM

Afternoon All,

Ed, proof ammo has a totally green base on the cartridge

from the label, top to bottom and left to right

16 (qty) pistol cartridge.....08 mE= mit Eisenkern (mild steel core ball bullet)

1942 fag 2 = production year, manufacterer, and lot code

the next two lines are for the components for the loaded cartridge........

The No. Stb.P stands for St abchenpulver with an umlaut over the small a and it means Chopped Tube Propellant (single-perforated grain) and more than likely are the mfg codes and supplier info for the powder mfg. and lot code of the powder..........this is a swag on this part......

Patrh. is abbrev. for cartridge case (Patronenhulse).......again, numbers mean supplier and lot code........another swag from my info..........

Kern is the type of bulletand production codes and lot numbers and i'll have to go with Gerben on the primer info......i can't read German that well

HTH, Regards, Paul

Edward Tinker · 04-06-2005, 04:03 PM

ahhh, excellent, thanks!

Paul L · 04-06-2005, 04:21 PM

Afternoon,

after seeing the headstamp info, i can now supply more info

Ed, yes it does mean something...............The bullet tip is black because the it indicates that it is has a mildly armor-piercing steel core

A four position element headstamp was used, with letter codes for producers after 1940

starting at 12oclock with the 3 letter producer code at that position (fag)has to be a german plant as its not in my list of occupied country codes.....

At 3oclock position,the symol indicates the case material, St or St+ indicates a steel case, either plated or lacquered..........

Further definitions are available for all types of material for the cases........

At the 6oclock position, is the lot # for the production of the c.i.q. (cartridge in question)...... 2 on example

At the 9oclock position is the year of production.....1942 on example

There are well over 100 letter type producer codes known,after the code change in 1940, most codes were 3 lower case letters, some are only 2 letters and only 2 "KNOWN" 1 letter codes................

Am working on the code for "fag" and if i find it, will post that info also.......

HTH, Regards, Paul

lightfoot · 04-07-2005, 01:09 PM

Thanks for the info so far!!

Does this stuff have any collector value?

Vlim · 04-07-2005, 04:11 PM

Hi,

It certainly has. It also has a 'do not' value as in 'do not use in P08'.

The Germans weren't lying on their labels (at least not on these).

I paid about $2 for a 1917 DWM 9mm cartrigde once.

I think a full, opened box with original ammo can go for about twice the price of normal ammo with added value for rare types, makers, etc....

Just happen to have a slightly larger packaging crate (sadly empty

), the labels on this one might interest you....

http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthre...&threadid=5714

(the box now indeed houses my CD-collection <grin>)

the gunman · 04-07-2005, 04:58 PM

fag EFG Enwicklungs- Fahrzeugbau GmbH.
Berlin- Baumschulenweg, Bodelschwinghstr.22-24

the gunman · 04-07-2005, 05:06 PM

Gentleman I have a rare copy 777 pages of the original code book . If I can help any one
private e mail me. cover of book reads .
Liste
der
Fertigungskennzeichen fur Waffen, Munition und Gerat
( Nach Buchstabengruppen geordnet)
Berlin 1944
gedruckt im Oberkommando des Heeres

Paul L · 04-07-2005, 06:01 PM

Richard,

what a SWEET piece of history you have...........would love to see a pic of the cover so i can print it and at to my must find list.........

If you can, Gerben was asking above what plant his "RFO" marked wooden case came from....the link for its pics are right above yor answers.......

How did you ever come across this copy ????

TIA, Regards, Paul

Vlim · 04-08-2005, 03:55 PM

Richie,

If it's copyable, I'm very, very interested in a copy.
You may even consider doing a 'republishing' of the thing!

lightfoot · 04-11-2005, 08:35 AM

The ammunition is for sale at Gunbroker.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...?Item=30716463

04-05-2005, 08:17 PM	#1
lightfoot New User Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 4 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Ammunition I have some ammunition that I believe may be for the Luger. A picture is attached. I have found some info on it and know that it is an iron core bullet. Each package holds 16 rounds. One is full and one has 10 rounds. It is German and was manufactured 1941 -1942. Does anyone have more facts on this stuff? Here are the sites where I found info. http://www.landofborchardt.com/ammo.html#dwm1 http://cartridgecollectors.org/intro9mm/ thanks, Attached Images

04-06-2005, 04:53 AM	#3
Steinar User Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 1,538 Thanks: 18 Thanked 36 Times in 21 Posts	Hi! They look different from WW2 Luger ammo I have.. But they are both packed in boxes with 16 rounds and have iron core (quite normal for that age). A picture of the butt might help __________________ Previously known as Morgan Kane

04-06-2005, 11:16 AM	#5
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,915 Thanks: 1,989 Thanked 4,506 Times in 2,080 Posts	The "black" tip doesn't mean anything for WW2 ammo? Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

04-06-2005, 04:03 PM	#9
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,915 Thanks: 1,989 Thanked 4,506 Times in 2,080 Posts	ahhh, excellent, thanks! __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

04-06-2005, 04:21 PM	#10
Paul L User Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Monroe County, SE Mich. Posts: 76 Thanks: 5 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	Ammo Identification Afternoon, after seeing the headstamp info, i can now supply more info Ed, yes it does mean something...............The bullet tip is black because the it indicates that it is has a mildly armor-piercing steel core A four position element headstamp was used, with letter codes for producers after 1940 starting at 12oclock with the 3 letter producer code at that position (fag)has to be a german plant as its not in my list of occupied country codes..... At 3oclock position,the symol indicates the case material, St or St+ indicates a steel case, either plated or lacquered.......... Further definitions are available for all types of material for the cases........ At the 6oclock position, is the lot # for the production of the c.i.q. (cartridge in question)...... 2 on example At the 9oclock position is the year of production.....1942 on example There are well over 100 letter type producer codes known,after the code change in 1940, most codes were 3 lower case letters, some are only 2 letters and only 2 "KNOWN" 1 letter codes................ Am working on the code for "fag" and if i find it, will post that info also....... HTH, Regards, Paul

04-05-2005, 08:44 PM	#2
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,915 Thanks: 1,989 Thanked 4,506 Times in 2,080 Posts	I could be wrong, but it is either sub-machine gun or proof firing ammo. Ed

04-06-2005, 08:58 AM	#4
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,043 Thanks: 1,032 Thanked 3,930 Times in 1,194 Posts	Hi, The shortage of raw materials, especially copper and lead, forced the Germans to use other materials instead. They heavily relied on the iron slag core (Sintereisenkern) as a substitute. This was labeled as 'Pistolenpatrone m. 08', thus useable in the P08, P38, submachineguns, etc... The primers were made by 'dnf', Rheinische-Westfaelische Sprengstoff AG, Stadeln plant near Nuernberg. No reference for the 'fag' ordnance code. The bullets with lacquered iron cases usually had a warning on the boxes that they were only limitedly useable for the P08. Steel casings were difficult to extract from the P08. Can you give us some codes on the bullet bases?

04-06-2005, 01:57 PM	#6
lightfoot New User Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 4 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	The text at the bottom of the picture is what is on the label on the box. The head stamp has 4 markings: St+ fag 42 2 The bullet measures .353 at the neck of the case.

04-06-2005, 02:50 PM	#7
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,043 Thanks: 1,032 Thanked 3,930 Times in 1,194 Posts	Hi Ed, Yes, this is the famed "Black Widow" ammo .... St+ is the 'stahl' or 'steel' code. Are the cases steel or brass? If they have 'St' on the bottom, I'd suspect them to be steel cases.

04-06-2005, 03:52 PM	#8
Paul L User Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Monroe County, SE Mich. Posts: 76 Thanks: 5 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	Afternoon All, Ed, proof ammo has a totally green base on the cartridge from the label, top to bottom and left to right 16 (qty) pistol cartridge.....08 mE= mit Eisenkern (mild steel core ball bullet) 1942 fag 2 = production year, manufacterer, and lot code the next two lines are for the components for the loaded cartridge........ The No. Stb.P stands for St abchenpulver with an umlaut over the small a and it means Chopped Tube Propellant (single-perforated grain) and more than likely are the mfg codes and supplier info for the powder mfg. and lot code of the powder..........this is a swag on this part...... Patrh. is abbrev. for cartridge case (Patronenhulse).......again, numbers mean supplier and lot code........another swag from my info.......... Kern is the type of bulletand production codes and lot numbers and i'll have to go with Gerben on the primer info......i can't read German that well HTH, Regards, Paul

04-07-2005, 01:09 PM	#11
lightfoot New User Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 4 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks for the info so far!! Does this stuff have any collector value?

04-07-2005, 04:11 PM	#12
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,043 Thanks: 1,032 Thanked 3,930 Times in 1,194 Posts	Hi, It certainly has. It also has a 'do not' value as in 'do not use in P08'. The Germans weren't lying on their labels (at least not on these). I paid about $2 for a 1917 DWM 9mm cartrigde once. I think a full, opened box with original ammo can go for about twice the price of normal ammo with added value for rare types, makers, etc.... Just happen to have a slightly larger packaging crate (sadly empty ), the labels on this one might interest you.... http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthre...&threadid=5714 (the box now indeed houses my CD-collection <grin>)

04-07-2005, 04:58 PM	#13
the gunman User Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Leland NC 28451 Posts: 1,017 Thanks: 1 Thanked 13 Times in 12 Posts	fag EFG Enwicklungs- Fahrzeugbau GmbH. Berlin- Baumschulenweg, Bodelschwinghstr.22-24

04-07-2005, 05:06 PM	#14
the gunman User Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Leland NC 28451 Posts: 1,017 Thanks: 1 Thanked 13 Times in 12 Posts	Gentleman I have a rare copy 777 pages of the original code book . If I can help any one private e mail me. cover of book reads . Liste der Fertigungskennzeichen fur Waffen, Munition und Gerat ( Nach Buchstabengruppen geordnet) Berlin 1944 gedruckt im Oberkommando des Heeres

04-07-2005, 06:01 PM	#15
Paul L User Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Monroe County, SE Mich. Posts: 76 Thanks: 5 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	Richard, what a SWEET piece of history you have...........would love to see a pic of the cover so i can print it and at to my must find list......... If you can, Gerben was asking above what plant his "RFO" marked wooden case came from....the link for its pics are right above yor answers....... How did you ever come across this copy ???? TIA, Regards, Paul

04-08-2005, 03:55 PM	#16
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,043 Thanks: 1,032 Thanked 3,930 Times in 1,194 Posts	Richie, If it's copyable, I'm very, very interested in a copy. You may even consider doing a 'republishing' of the thing!

04-11-2005, 08:35 AM	#17
lightfoot New User Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 4 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	The ammunition is for sale at Gunbroker. http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...?Item=30716463