Info on 1916 DWM WWII Vet Bring Back

gatornavy · 03-29-2010, 12:22 PM

Greetings to the Board
I am trying to help my father on some history of his luger he got in France June 13, 1944. Since there are 28 years between manufacture and his "armed robbery" as he calls it we are looking for just any basic history that would apply. I have read LOTS of threads on the forum and not really sure how to piece it together. I know photos are not very good but not really after an appraisal. It will stay in family anyway. S# is 823d and all #'s match except mag and the trigger plate is not numbered. Some die marks are weak from wear but are there. Any info or reference source (that I can afford) is greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.
Ron

MikeP · 03-29-2010, 02:19 PM

Did somebody strip the finish off this?

lugerholsterrepair · 03-29-2010, 02:28 PM

Ron, Like the Emperor who has no clothes! I am curious same as Mike..There appears to be no bluing except the barrel and in some recesses.

As far as history..Get your Father to write up as much as he can remember or it could be lost.
The history of the pistol is pretty much the history of most DWM made wartime pistols. It is written on the pistol. Made in 1916, German Army issue. Unless it has grip strap unit markings..nothing else to be discovered.

Jerry Burney

Norme · 03-29-2010, 02:50 PM

Hi Ron, Welcome to the Forum. You already know the two most important things about this Luger, it served in both WWI and WWII.
Along the way it acquired a WWII magazine and was, most likely, sand blasted (perhaps your Dad will remember having it done). Regards, Norm

lugerholsterrepair · 03-29-2010, 03:05 PM

Norm brings up a couple of interesting points..What's on the bottom of the mag? Blank?

I have actually sandblasted a Luger..It looks VERY matt finish when you do this and Ron's pistol looks way too slick to be sandblasted.

Jerry Burney

EricW · 03-30-2010, 06:02 AM

Maybe a silver Rustoleum paint job?

John Sabato · 03-30-2010, 08:43 AM

Looks like a flat nickle finish to me... Just my $0.02

gatornavy · 03-30-2010, 09:16 AM

Thanks to Everyone
Talked to Dad this morning and the gun is exactly the way he got it in '44. I know the photos are not great but I am looking at it now more closely and there is no indication of any blueing anywhere. The finish, barrel to frame is consistent. Only the trigger plate has a different appearance. There is still some slight strawing on the left side of the trigger. The mag# is 6940(+).
I am now assuming that we should NOT have it blued? And can anyone tell that I don't have a clue what I am doing but fast becoming a lugerhead. Many thanks again, you guys are amazing.
Ron

LugerVern · 03-30-2010, 09:46 AM

The gun has been chemically cleaned at some point, I say this because the pits are rust free. I see some rust forming in the grip area from finger prints and as long as the gun is bare it will be subject to easy rusting.

The gun is a family collectible and should remain in the family if at all possible.

Many of the markings are thin from natural use and acid cleaning, IMO you would not devalue the gun by giving it a finish of some kind.

I would not use any of the cold blue you find in the local stores, most will not last, Brownells has several alternatives that give a much longer lasting finish
http://www.brownells.com

I like some of the gray phosphate finishes that can be applied at home, they last almost forever and would keep the gun protected while maintaining a similar look.

Thanks for sharing your gun with us

Vern

gatornavy · 03-30-2010, 03:27 PM

Vern
Appreciate the info and comments. Found something on a German website that specifically mentioned a "German gray phosphate finish" used in WWII. Is that similar to what you are referring? Also could it be possible that is what is on gun now and finally wearing off? Just a thought. It would be exciting to restore to "original" finish. Thanks again for all your help.
Ron

alanint · 03-30-2010, 03:40 PM

There was a finish used last ditch by the Germans, which consisted of a "clear" phosphating finish. The most notable examples of this can be found on some late MP/ Stg 44s. What looks like bare metal finish is actually protected by a clear phosphate coat.

Is it too far fetched to suppose this Luger saw this treatment sometime late war?

Sieger · 03-30-2010, 08:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alanint

There was a finish used last ditch by the Germans, which consisted of a "clear" phosphating finish. The most notable examples of this can be found on some late MP/ STg 44s. What looks like bare metal finish is actually protected by a clear phosphate coat.

Is it too far fetched to suppose this Luger saw this treatment sometime late war?

Hi:

I've seen one late war Mauser Luger with the green-gray finish, but your "Clear" finish sure sounds interesting to me.

Sieger

alanint · 03-30-2010, 10:38 PM

Look up any MP44 resource. This coating is fully documented there. I have examined and shot MP44s, which had parts, never in my experience the whole gun, finished with this clear coat. It looks like bare metal but with little sign of rust or corrosion on it.

John Sabato · 03-31-2010, 10:13 AM

There were also the last BYF 42 Lugers that were "parkerized" and sold/issued to the Portuguese... They are quality Lugers mechanically, but BUTT UGLY finish IMHO.

alanint · 03-31-2010, 11:44 AM

Here is an example of a late war Stg 44 magazine. The clear finish is also known as "bonderized" by some collectors. Other portions of the rifles, such as the foregrip, pistol grip section and other small parts will be found with this finish.

http://www.rjmilitaria.com/mp44m2.htm

Here is a mention of the late war clear finish from an MP44 resource:

http://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=4012

gatornavy · 04-02-2010, 08:34 AM

Thanks to Alanint and John
Great info and background. Enjoyed photos. I am currently investigating using Brownells Zinc Phosphate Parkerizing product. Again, the only collector value is to the family. Does anyone have opinion from personal experience with this product or know a better way to go. Appreciate the help.
Ron
P.S. Should I be posting this in the restoration/refinish threads instead of here. Sorry, still novice to forum.

03-29-2010, 12:22 PM	#1
gatornavy User Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: South Carolina Posts: 23 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Info on 1916 DWM WWII Vet Bring Back Greetings to the Board I am trying to help my father on some history of his luger he got in France June 13, 1944. Since there are 28 years between manufacture and his "armed robbery" as he calls it we are looking for just any basic history that would apply. I have read LOTS of threads on the forum and not really sure how to piece it together. I know photos are not very good but not really after an appraisal. It will stay in family anyway. S# is 823d and all #'s match except mag and the trigger plate is not numbered. Some die marks are weak from wear but are there. Any info or reference source (that I can afford) is greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance. Ron Attached Thumbnails

03-29-2010, 02:28 PM	#3
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,766 Thanks: 4,883 Thanked 3,121 Times in 1,432 Posts	Ron, Like the Emperor who has no clothes! I am curious same as Mike..There appears to be no bluing except the barrel and in some recesses. As far as history..Get your Father to write up as much as he can remember or it could be lost. The history of the pistol is pretty much the history of most DWM made wartime pistols. It is written on the pistol. Made in 1916, German Army issue. Unless it has grip strap unit markings..nothing else to be discovered. Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

03-29-2010, 03:05 PM	#5
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,766 Thanks: 4,883 Thanked 3,121 Times in 1,432 Posts	Norm brings up a couple of interesting points..What's on the bottom of the mag? Blank? I have actually sandblasted a Luger..It looks VERY matt finish when you do this and Ron's pistol looks way too slick to be sandblasted. Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

03-30-2010, 06:02 AM	#6
EricW User Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: CA, USA Posts: 62 Thanks: 4 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	Maybe a silver Rustoleum paint job? __________________ I'm looking for a D suffix DE154 G Date mag. The closer to #457d the better PM me if you have one you are willing to sell, trade, or if you have a lead

03-30-2010, 08:43 AM	#7
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,153 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Looks like a flat nickle finish to me... Just my $0.02 __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

03-29-2010, 02:19 PM	#2
MikeP User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: ILL Posts: 686 Thanks: 36 Thanked 452 Times in 198 Posts	Did somebody strip the finish off this?

03-29-2010, 02:50 PM	#4
Norme Always A Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,417 Thanks: 225 Thanked 2,603 Times in 933 Posts	Hi Ron, Welcome to the Forum. You already know the two most important things about this Luger, it served in both WWI and WWII. Along the way it acquired a WWII magazine and was, most likely, sand blasted (perhaps your Dad will remember having it done). Regards, Norm

03-30-2010, 09:16 AM	#8
gatornavy User Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: South Carolina Posts: 23 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks to Everyone Talked to Dad this morning and the gun is exactly the way he got it in '44. I know the photos are not great but I am looking at it now more closely and there is no indication of any blueing anywhere. The finish, barrel to frame is consistent. Only the trigger plate has a different appearance. There is still some slight strawing on the left side of the trigger. The mag# is 6940(+). I am now assuming that we should NOT have it blued? And can anyone tell that I don't have a clue what I am doing but fast becoming a lugerhead. Many thanks again, you guys are amazing. Ron

03-30-2010, 09:46 AM	#9
LugerVern User Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Virginia Posts: 563 Thanks: 1 Thanked 34 Times in 27 Posts	The gun has been chemically cleaned at some point, I say this because the pits are rust free. I see some rust forming in the grip area from finger prints and as long as the gun is bare it will be subject to easy rusting. The gun is a family collectible and should remain in the family if at all possible. Many of the markings are thin from natural use and acid cleaning, IMO you would not devalue the gun by giving it a finish of some kind. I would not use any of the cold blue you find in the local stores, most will not last, Brownells has several alternatives that give a much longer lasting finish http://www.brownells.com I like some of the gray phosphate finishes that can be applied at home, they last almost forever and would keep the gun protected while maintaining a similar look. Thanks for sharing your gun with us Vern

03-30-2010, 03:27 PM	#10
gatornavy User Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: South Carolina Posts: 23 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Vern Appreciate the info and comments. Found something on a German website that specifically mentioned a "German gray phosphate finish" used in WWII. Is that similar to what you are referring? Also could it be possible that is what is on gun now and finally wearing off? Just a thought. It would be exciting to restore to "original" finish. Thanks again for all your help. Ron

03-30-2010, 03:40 PM	#11
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	There was a finish used last ditch by the Germans, which consisted of a "clear" phosphating finish. The most notable examples of this can be found on some late MP/ Stg 44s. What looks like bare metal finish is actually protected by a clear phosphate coat. Is it too far fetched to suppose this Luger saw this treatment sometime late war? Last edited by alanint; 03-31-2010 at 12:33 PM.

03-30-2010, 10:38 PM	#13
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	Look up any MP44 resource. This coating is fully documented there. I have examined and shot MP44s, which had parts, never in my experience the whole gun, finished with this clear coat. It looks like bare metal but with little sign of rust or corrosion on it.

03-31-2010, 10:13 AM	#14
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,153 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	There were also the last BYF 42 Lugers that were "parkerized" and sold/issued to the Portuguese... They are quality Lugers mechanically, but BUTT UGLY finish IMHO. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

03-31-2010, 11:44 AM	#15
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	Here is an example of a late war Stg 44 magazine. The clear finish is also known as "bonderized" by some collectors. Other portions of the rifles, such as the foregrip, pistol grip section and other small parts will be found with this finish. http://www.rjmilitaria.com/mp44m2.htm Here is a mention of the late war clear finish from an MP44 resource: http://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=4012

04-02-2010, 08:34 AM	#16
gatornavy User Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: South Carolina Posts: 23 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks to Alanint and John Great info and background. Enjoyed photos. I am currently investigating using Brownells Zinc Phosphate Parkerizing product. Again, the only collector value is to the family. Does anyone have opinion from personal experience with this product or know a better way to go. Appreciate the help. Ron P.S. Should I be posting this in the restoration/refinish threads instead of here. Sorry, still novice to forum.