British Proofs In a Circle or Not...?

Pete Ebbink · 06-06-2002, 07:44 PM

When some folks on the old Forum were helpng me two months back to ID some British proof marks on my '41 byf Black Widow,I could not figure out why all my British proof house marks are fully encircled and other Forum members mentioned proof marks without being encircled.

I got a copy of Gerhard Wirnberger's "The Standard Directory of Proof Marks" a few days ago and think I found my answer :

On pages 109 and 111, Mr. Wirnsberger states that if the gun was foreign made (i.e. not in England), the British proof house would use proof marks that are fully encircled. If the gun was made in England but needed to be proofed, the same proof marks were used without a circle.

For example Crown/NP encircled versus Crown/NP without a circle.

My Black Widow has all encircled proof marks as follows : Crown/NP, Crown/GP, and Crown/V.

<img src="graemlins/jumper.gif" border="0" alt="[jumper]" /> This luger detective work is so much fun !!! <img src="graemlins/jumper.gif" border="0" alt="[jumper]" />

Johnny Peppers · 06-08-2002, 10:41 PM

Pete,
Without a picture of the proof, I am not sure whether you are indicating that the entire proof is circled, or is it a circle with a crown on top of the circle? The proofs used during the Proof Act of 1925-1955 used the circle with a crown on top, and this was not used in either the Proof Act of 1904-1925 or the Proof Act of 1955. I don't remember if your Luger had the NOT ENGLISH MAKE or not, but this was a requirement of the 1925-1955 Proof Act.
The Lend-Lease weapons sent to England by the US did not have a circle/crown proof mark unless they were sold during the pre 1955 time period.
If your e-mail address is listed, I will try to send you a scan (rather than end up with an invisible ] that won't post) of the 1925-1955 proof.

Pete Ebbink · 06-09-2002, 12:05 PM

Hello Johnny,

Thanks for the private email with the photo of the proofs.

Yes, these are the proofs Mr. Gerhard Wirnberger was talking about.

My BW does have that "Not English Make" on its right side frame rail...

I do not know what the "Lend Lease" guns were about...can you explain a bit more ?

I am a bit confused; he is pretty clear in his book about proofs with and without being circled. The encircled proofs only being used for guns not made in England...

I have a scanner only at work, so will try to post a couple of his book's pages early next week...

Thanks for your help...

Pete

Johnny Peppers · 06-09-2002, 10:28 PM

Pete,
Lend-Lease weapons were US made weapons that were sent to our allies in WWII to aid in the defeat of the Axis Powers. The President of the United States could accept most anything as payment even down to "direct or indirect benefits". The most common Lend-Lease weapons that we see are the M1 Rifle and the 1911A1 pistol. Most of the Lend-Lease aid went to the British Empire. I only mentioned the Lend-Lease weapons for the fact that they too have the required commercial British proofs. As the weapons were released by the British government for commercial sale, they went through either the London or Birmingham Proof House.
As stated earlier, the Proof Act of 1925 required the words "NOT ENGLISH MAKE" on foreign made weapons and the proof marks were enclosed in a circle.
I am not going to say the author is wrong as I have no idea one way or the other, but prior to 1925 the proof marks were not in a circle and after 1955 they were not in a circle on US weapons coming back from England. This is true of foreign made weapons, so if it was a requirement it was only during the 1925/1955 time period just as the NOT ENGLISH MAKE was a requirement.

Pete Ebbink · 06-09-2002, 11:03 PM

Thanks so much Johnny...! <img src="graemlins/jumper.gif" border="0" alt="[jumper]" />

As I am beginning to appreciate in my luger readings, one author may be right at the time of his/her writings. Then as more information surfaces, that previous information does not necessarily become "wrong", but maybe just a bit dated...

Appreciate your help with this matter...

06-06-2002, 07:44 PM	#1
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	British Proofs In a Circle or Not...? When some folks on the old Forum were helpng me two months back to ID some British proof marks on my '41 byf Black Widow,I could not figure out why all my British proof house marks are fully encircled and other Forum members mentioned proof marks without being encircled. I got a copy of Gerhard Wirnberger's "The Standard Directory of Proof Marks" a few days ago and think I found my answer : On pages 109 and 111, Mr. Wirnsberger states that if the gun was foreign made (i.e. not in England), the British proof house would use proof marks that are fully encircled. If the gun was made in England but needed to be proofed, the same proof marks were used without a circle. For example Crown/NP encircled versus Crown/NP without a circle. My Black Widow has all encircled proof marks as follows : Crown/NP, Crown/GP, and Crown/V. <img src="graemlins/jumper.gif" border="0" alt="[jumper]" /> This luger detective work is so much fun !!! <img src="graemlins/jumper.gif" border="0" alt="[jumper]" />

06-08-2002, 10:41 PM	#2
Johnny Peppers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Calion, Arkansas Posts: 1,042 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Pete, Without a picture of the proof, I am not sure whether you are indicating that the entire proof is circled, or is it a circle with a crown on top of the circle? The proofs used during the Proof Act of 1925-1955 used the circle with a crown on top, and this was not used in either the Proof Act of 1904-1925 or the Proof Act of 1955. I don't remember if your Luger had the NOT ENGLISH MAKE or not, but this was a requirement of the 1925-1955 Proof Act. The Lend-Lease weapons sent to England by the US did not have a circle/crown proof mark unless they were sold during the pre 1955 time period. If your e-mail address is listed, I will try to send you a scan (rather than end up with an invisible ] that won't post) of the 1925-1955 proof.

06-09-2002, 12:05 PM	#3
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hello Johnny, Thanks for the private email with the photo of the proofs. Yes, these are the proofs Mr. Gerhard Wirnberger was talking about. My BW does have that "Not English Make" on its right side frame rail... I do not know what the "Lend Lease" guns were about...can you explain a bit more ? I am a bit confused; he is pretty clear in his book about proofs with and without being circled. The encircled proofs only being used for guns not made in England... I have a scanner only at work, so will try to post a couple of his book's pages early next week... Thanks for your help... Pete

06-09-2002, 10:28 PM	#4
Johnny Peppers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Calion, Arkansas Posts: 1,042 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Pete, Lend-Lease weapons were US made weapons that were sent to our allies in WWII to aid in the defeat of the Axis Powers. The President of the United States could accept most anything as payment even down to "direct or indirect benefits". The most common Lend-Lease weapons that we see are the M1 Rifle and the 1911A1 pistol. Most of the Lend-Lease aid went to the British Empire. I only mentioned the Lend-Lease weapons for the fact that they too have the required commercial British proofs. As the weapons were released by the British government for commercial sale, they went through either the London or Birmingham Proof House. As stated earlier, the Proof Act of 1925 required the words "NOT ENGLISH MAKE" on foreign made weapons and the proof marks were enclosed in a circle. I am not going to say the author is wrong as I have no idea one way or the other, but prior to 1925 the proof marks were not in a circle and after 1955 they were not in a circle on US weapons coming back from England. This is true of foreign made weapons, so if it was a requirement it was only during the 1925/1955 time period just as the NOT ENGLISH MAKE was a requirement.

06-09-2002, 11:03 PM	#5
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Thanks so much Johnny...! <img src="graemlins/jumper.gif" border="0" alt="[jumper]" /> As I am beginning to appreciate in my luger readings, one author may be right at the time of his/her writings. Then as more information surfaces, that previous information does not necessarily become "wrong", but maybe just a bit dated... Appreciate your help with this matter...