1900 Swiss Pictures, Value, Comments

[RAHamilton]

Gentlemen:

I have been discussing the purchase of a 1900 Swiss Luger from a gentleman who sent me several pictures of this weapon. I've taken some digital pictures of the pictures and they didn't turn out to bad. Hopefully, you will be able to provide me some feedback based on the pictures.

Things I know about this particular Swiss; SN #2914. It has been re-blued as is evidenced from the pictures showing the interior of the mag well with the right grip taken off. As evidenced, it is blue and not "in the white" and also there is some slight pitting of the metal that has been blued over. The mag has a small chip out of the wooden bottom and although the pictures do not show it, it's supposed to be numbered to the gun. The grips are numbered to the gun and the left side markings show up fairly well in the pictures. The right side appears to be completely void of any stampings, markings, of any kind.

I would appreciate any and all comments about this particular Swiss and also if any of you have an estimated value in it's re-blued condition. Thanks in advance and I need your comments as soon as possible.

Best Regards,
Bob

[Edward Tinker]

Here are some additional photos of the 1900 Swiss.

Thanks,
Bob

[Edward Tinker]

Gentlemen:

Here are the final couple of photos of the 1900 Swiss. Any and all comments appreciated, especially value in this condition.

Thanks Again,
Bob





Bob, I just made all the posts come together,

Ed

[RAHamilton]

In looking at the copied photos one of the stamps does not show up very well. There is another distinct [+] cross on the flat section behind the toggles and in front of the rear sight. This does not show in the copies I took, but is very clear in the original photographs.

Regards,
Bob

[Ron Wood]

The cross on the flat section of the rear toggle is barely visible in the photos, and although it is difficult to tell for sure, it appears that the rear sight has been modified to a "U" configuration from the original "V" shape to improve the sight picture, and therefore the cross proof was added when this modification was performed.

The Luger is an early Swiss military as evidenced by the "cross/V" stamp on the left receiver indicating that it was inspected by Major Vogelsang.

The photos are inconclusive concerning the "in the white" portions, or lack thereof. The inside of the receiver rails and the top of the frame are the areas that were polished and left in the white when the weapon was originally rust blued. These "in the white" areas can only be photographed by removing the cannon assembly from the frame, and further removing the toggle assembly from the receiver.

It is difficult to assess the markings and finish of this Luger from the photographs. Taking photos out-of-doors is a great idea since natural sunlight reveals the true color of the finish. But the photos should be taken on a cloudy day or in light shade to preclude the harsh glare that masks most of the details.

It would be helpful to take additional photos in a better light environment to have clearer images of the rear sight, barrel serial number, thumb safety and other details, plus in-focus shots of the overall exterior.

You have located a fairly early production Luger. It deserves an objective assessment.

[panda]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by RAHamilton:
<strong>
The mag has a small chip out of the wooden bottom and although the pictures do not show it, it's supposed to be numbered to the gun.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">The mag seems to belong to a 06/24 (no metal inserts in the bottom). Although I'd have to check (or another LF member could do it for me as I don't have my books with me, e.g. Rutsch) I think only the very early mags were numbered, so it shouldn't be too difficult to find a matching mag. In any case 06/24 mags were not originally numbered so there is no reason to find a number on this one, especially a number "conveniently" matching the gun. Maybe you should check whether there hasn't been any forced matching.

Two years ago I was offered a matching non-pitted reblued 1900 Swiss luger for 1800.- CHF. I though didn't take it.

Cheers, Panda

[Pete Ebbink]

Hi Bob,...

I am away from my library this week, but will try to add a bit to the great info. Ron and others have posted :

1. I cannot recall where the M1900 Swiss luger switched from a type 2 thumb safety lever to a type 3. The luger in your photos has the type 3. When I get back near my Swiss luger books I will try to find the serial number range when this change occurred. From my memory, I think it happened in the # 2000 to # 3000 range...but I cannot be certain until I get some books in hand.

2. As Ron Wood has stated in the past in other postings, many of the Swiss lugers were refinished by the Bern arsenal and other official gunsmiths in CH. A Bern refinish does not seem to lower a Swiss luger value as other refinished luger...but to find an original factory finish would be best.

3. Since this M1900 luger is Ordnance stamped with the +/V stamping, it was a military pistol so should have the "metal insert" disc type wooden magazine. Some of the commercial M1900 Swiss lugers did come with plain wooden magazines (i.e. w/out the metal disc inserts...)

The Swiss wooden magazines are a little unique from the German magazines. The roundness of the two "knobs" are not sanded flat along the bottom surface of the wood and show their circular form. Is there a chance that you might have a close-up photo showing the bottom of the wooden magazine bottom ?

4. Another photo showing the "polished" area under the thumb stafety lever in detail might help others help you determine if this pistol has been refinished or not...

p.s. My WAG's on value...if original finish...maybe in the $ 4k to 4.5K price range...if a local refinish...maybe $ 2K to 2.5K...?

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

[panda]

If it's a W+F Bern refinish using the original technique, it can sometimes be very difficult to tell (unless there is a visible surface alteration underneath) and should not significantly affect the value... if at all detected.

The one I was offered for 1800.- CHF was clearly not a W+F refinish (not exactly the same colour) even though it wasn't a bad job, but not the W+F standard. Then again, prices in CH generally tend to be a lot lower than in the US for this kind of item.

[Jamka]

Bob,

Certainly a fine looking 1900 Swiss. The SN 29xx places it in the so called 4th variation of the military issued model 1900 parabellums. This variation run from SN 2501 to SN 3555, it is recognizable by the safety lever which is from now on not longer knurled, but fluted for about 8 millimeters. You still have the short grip - safety, which was altered later during this variation to a longer one.

I tend to agree with earlier comments that the magazine should have metal plates inside of the wooden knobs for this variation.

The value (always difficult to estimate, because it depends where you live and where the market is) would be here in Europe about U$ 2.250,-. With a matching magazine U$ 150,- more. And without any refinish, how well may it be done in your case, the value might run op to U$ 3.500,-,

I am not an expert, but this is what I can share with you as a fellow collector.

Regards,

[John Sabato]

Jamka, just noticed that this was your FIRST post. Welcome to the Lugerforum! and thanks for contributing.

[RAHamilton]

Gentlemen:

Thanks to all of you for your informative responses to my inquiry. I can add the following information that was supplied to me by the current owner of this particular Swiss. The area under the safety lever is blue and not white, but it appears to him to be a different color of blue, which seems to indicate that at one time it was definitely machined in the white.

I don't know if the Swiss, when they refinished their Lugers, completely refinished all areas including the interior "in the white" and the section under the safety lever or not. I hope one of you more informed members can provide me with that answer. Again, thanks to all of you for your responses, they have been very educational and are greatly appreciated.

Best Regards,
Bob

[Pete Ebbink]

Hello Bob,

This is only a WAG on my part...but my guess would be that the Bern arsenal or a Swiss-authorized gunsmith/shop would/should probably try to retain the "polished" area underneath the thumb safety lever, especially for a military, Ordnance pistol. This to keep the "as specified" feature of the "visual" aspect of the polished area of the gun when it was original. If both exposed areas around the safety lever were both blued, it might confuse the shooter-in-training and lead to unsafe conditions. I cannot imagine the Swiss allowing this situation to occur in the Military services.

I have seen 4-5 Swiss lugers (M1900, M1906, and M1906/24) in person over the past 3 years that seemed to be Bern arsenal refinish works and the polished areas were white and still retaining their sharp contour and shape, but some of the depth of the relief cut seemed to be lost. If these were not Bern reworks, the modern-day refinisher did so with some high level of skill...

Just my 2 cents...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

[Pete Ebbink]

Hello Joop,

Glad to see you on this Forum, as well...Welcome !

If you do not mind my asking these follow up questions :

1. The luger photographed here seems to have the grip safety that is the full width of the grip strap. Your comment seems to indicate that they are two lenghts of the wide grip safety.

Do you know the lengths, in cm or mm, that the two wide grip safeties were made ?

2. Do you know the serial number (or range of serial numbers) at which this change in the Swiss M1900 from a "short" grip safety to a "long" grip safety occurred ?

Thanks in advance for your time in replying...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

[Jamka]

Pete,

Sorry that I respond only after a week. I was very busy with a 'Luger' project that took me all evenings (and some nights). I now have reasons to hope that this project will lead to the result I was aiming at... If so, I will post here a few interesting findings within few months.

Now to your questions.
My knowledge is based upon three sources (I think that is true for all of us)
1. Reading books
2. Examining Lugers
3. Learning from each other (like in this forum).

As to the size of the safety grips on the 1900 Swiss parabellums, I made myself not clear enough. In stead of 'length' I should have used the word 'width'.

The so called 'first series'(# 1-2000)of the 1900 Swiss Parabellum had a rather narrow grip safety (on my # 1062 this is 11 mm).

It was discovered soon that the skin of the hand, stretched between thumb and index, could be caught between the grip safety and the back grip strap. So for the 'second series' the grip safety was widened. (on my # 3643 - 4th variation, this is 17 mm).

My excuses Pete. Length and width. I was never very strong in maths at school. Hope that I passed at least this examination!

Best regards.

[Pete Ebbink]

Hi Joop,

I hope I did not sound like I was giving you a difficult time. I was aware of the differences in width of the grip safety but thought I missed something in my reading when you mentioned changes in length...simple mis-understanding based on the choice of a simple word.

I admire you and our other European LF members who participate and post on the Forum in English...which in your case might be your 2nd. or even 3rd. language...!!! <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

[Jamka]

Pete,

Thanks for your kind remarks. Yes, when I was a kid I had to learn four languages at high school; Dutch (native), English, French and German. After that I took courses in Spanish, and (some) Russian. And right now I have the Artillery book of Mauro next to my bed, and try to read Italian. Like my father told me: with every language you understand your world is increasing...

BTW Pete, I learned a lot from your comments and tutorials on Swiss Lugers. You were a great help in completing my collection, thanks for that.
It is almost complete - only a 1900 3th variation and a red grips 06/29 are still missing.
Anyhow, searching and hunting is the greatest fun of our passion...

Best regards,

[Pete Ebbink]

Hi Joop,

I think it is time you bless us with some nice photos of your Swiss luger collection...many of us will live vicariously through your collection...

If you need help posting photos, you can send them to me and I can get your photos posted in a Member's Gallery photo album for you.

My email is : "pebbink@pacbell.net"

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

[Jamka]

Pete,

Yes, I promise to make a short tutorial with pictures, showing the differences in the Swiss 1900 two 2 series and the variations I have. To 'have' means here however that I am awaiting three of them still to arrive. After three month of paperwork and importlicense hunting, they should be here in about 3 - 4 weeks.

So the promised 'slide show' will be ready and visible here at the end of August. You being the initiator, I will send you an E-mail first...

Best regards,