Trying to decide: restoration or leave it be.

simoon · 12-20-2003, 04:22 PM

I've owned this 06 Naval Commercial for a long time. All matching except the magazine which is a nice American Eagle.
The strawing is weak, and I'm confused on the finish. It would appear to be original by the crispness of the proofs on the underside of the barrel, and the condition overall, but the weakness of the proofs on the left side of the receiver looks like a buff job to me.
It would be a great restoration candidate unless it's collector value dictates otherwise. I have to admit that I worked on the grips 20 years ago. They look great, but I might have done a no no. Comments?

http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/barrell.jpg

<a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/left.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/left.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>
<a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/goodside1.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/goodside1.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>
<a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/top1.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/top1.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

simoon · 12-20-2003, 04:26 PM

Had a problem with the important pic. The url in the original is not mine labelled left.

Thanks

drbuster · 12-20-2003, 05:04 PM

Beautiful Navy Commercial, Simoon. The edges of the receiver are sharp. The "U" and "B" proofs are sharp and struck with apparently a worn dye. The edges on the side plate are also sharp. I don't see any evidence of buffing. The grips, although reworked by you, look great. It's a great looking piece that smacks of being completely original. To "restore" such a piece would deserve life in prison!

Ron Wood · 12-20-2003, 07:16 PM

It is always hard to tell from photos whether a finish is original or not. My first impression is that it is original. It should be examined by somebody like Tom A. to verify it. Given that it is original, restoration isn't an option. I can't think of a quicker way to turn a $4-5000 gun into $1200 shooter. On top of that, it is a beautiful piece the way it is. Why in the world would you want to restore something that looks that good? An all matching gun that is nearly 100 years old isn't supposed to look new.

Big Norm · 12-20-2003, 10:20 PM

Simoon,
something that I always key up on is the locking bolt. Few people are able to keep the flatness aas well as the champhered edges while restrawing. The pictures you sent, while good, are not really good enough the really tell. But my guess is the the flat surface looks a bite rounded. Only you can tell because you have the gun in your hands. I see what you mean by the possible buffed proof mark on the left side. But the gun otherwise looks good. Good enough to cast and element of doubt. As long as there is that element of doubt then you should NOT restore this gun. You would only eliminate the element of doubt and then you and everyone else would then know that it is a restored gun for sure.
Big Norm

simoon · 12-21-2003, 09:08 AM

As usual, thanks for the insight! I learn something everytime I visit lugerforum.

I uploaded this picture. Wondering if it is the tie breaker. With the safety on the difference in the bluing underneath is noticable. Can't imagine someone doing a good bluing with the lever in place especially since it is not blued itself. Is that from years of corrosion?
The toggle bolt pin seems not to be the same hue. Is that normal or a repair? And of course what drives me insane are the scratches some idiot put on the side in what must have been an attempt to remove surface rust.

Bob

ps Overnight, my url's turned into images. Are there elves that do that? Or am I making work for somebody?

http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/side_copy1.jpg

drbuster · 12-21-2003, 09:50 AM

Simoon, the toggle pin was originally fire blued and later would have a different hue that the rest of the blue. The different "bluing" under the safety lever is the old ground out lower "Gesichert" marking that was done around 1912 when the first model '06 Navy was modified into the second model to correct a safety problem when the gun was removed from the holster. Again, all correct. The take down lever, as Big Norm suggests, is a question, but one just cannot tell. I agree that the buffing on the side of the frame is aggravating, but doesn't change, IMO, that this piece is basically an original gem.

Edward Tinker · 12-21-2003, 11:18 AM

Simoon, I did that.

I love to be able "see" the picture and the words right in front of me.

The "trick" is to place [img] or if the picture is larger than the screen, a [thumb], while at the end of the url you place [/img] or [/thumb].

img equals image, the first one "tells" the computer that an image follows, the second one "tells" the computer the image is finished. The thumb is code that John D wrote and tells the image to show up as smaller, but allows you to click on it.

As an example, your url above, if you click on the icon of the pencil and paper the url is kind of messed up? Then compare it to the url shown here on this page. The img and the /img with brackets would go on each side of the url with out any spaces.

It is easier to see than have it explained, <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

Ed

simoon · 12-21-2003, 12:53 PM

just testing

simoon · 12-21-2003, 01:01 PM

It previews OK, but it doesn't appear on the page correctly.
I'm lost.

simoon · 12-21-2003, 01:07 PM

One more time....

simoon · 12-21-2003, 01:08 PM

I got it!!!
Thanks!!

Edward Tinker · 12-21-2003, 03:06 PM

the space between the [/img] and is what made it not show up, but now that you know what works, it gets easier each time.

ed

Dwight Gruber · 12-21-2003, 04:03 PM

Simoon,

Looking at the photo of the top of the gun, the end of the center toggle retaining pin (which can be seen at the top of the left toggle grip) and the 200-meter number platen are both unblued. These are solid indicators that this Luger retains its original finish.

If you have gone through Tom Armstrong's excellent post on authenticating Imperial Navy Lugers and everything is proper, you have a really excellent original Commercial Navy Luger.

--Dwight

Ron Wood · 12-21-2003, 06:48 PM

Bob (Simoon)
The discolored area under the safety lever is the result of oxidation of the bright polished safety marking style of 1900 and 1906 model Lugers. Some 1906 commercial Navy Lugers were GESICHERT marked, but they are also found with the polished safey area like yours. You have what appears to be a really nice original finished Commercial Navy. Your tie breaker doesn't faze me at all. I still believe it would be a big mistake to restore it.
Just my opinion,
Ron

simoon · 12-21-2003, 07:29 PM

Ron, Ed, Herb, Norm, & Dwight,

I will not do a thing to this Naval!
I'll find an appropriate shooter and send it to Thor.
Thanks for your collective insights and help.

Happy Holidays to all!

Bob

Navy · 12-22-2003, 01:48 PM

All,

The gun is right as rain and any attempts to enhance it should warrant 30 days in the electric chair.

Tom A.

John D. · 12-22-2003, 01:55 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Tom A:
.... any attempts to enhance it should warrant 30 days in the electric chair.<hr /></blockquote>That's a shocking statement..!!!
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />

12-20-2003, 04:22 PM	#1
simoon User Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Central Florida Posts: 27 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Trying to decide: restoration or leave it be. I've owned this 06 Naval Commercial for a long time. All matching except the magazine which is a nice American Eagle. The strawing is weak, and I'm confused on the finish. It would appear to be original by the crispness of the proofs on the underside of the barrel, and the condition overall, but the weakness of the proofs on the left side of the receiver looks like a buff job to me. It would be a great restoration candidate unless it's collector value dictates otherwise. I have to admit that I worked on the grips 20 years ago. They look great, but I might have done a no no. Comments? http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/barrell.jpg <a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/left.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/left.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a> <a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/goodside1.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/goodside1.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a> <a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/top1.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/top1.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a> __________________ Good judgement comes from experience... experience comes from bad judgement.

12-20-2003, 04:26 PM	#2
simoon User Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Central Florida Posts: 27 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Had a problem with the important pic. The url in the original is not mine labelled left. Thanks __________________ Good judgement comes from experience... experience comes from bad judgement.

12-20-2003, 07:16 PM	#4
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,988 Thanks: 1,067 Thanked 5,099 Times in 1,676 Posts	It is always hard to tell from photos whether a finish is original or not. My first impression is that it is original. It should be examined by somebody like Tom A. to verify it. Given that it is original, restoration isn't an option. I can't think of a quicker way to turn a $4-5000 gun into $1200 shooter. On top of that, it is a beautiful piece the way it is. Why in the world would you want to restore something that looks that good? An all matching gun that is nearly 100 years old isn't supposed to look new. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

12-21-2003, 09:08 AM	#6
simoon User Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Central Florida Posts: 27 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	As usual, thanks for the insight! I learn something everytime I visit lugerforum. I uploaded this picture. Wondering if it is the tie breaker. With the safety on the difference in the bluing underneath is noticable. Can't imagine someone doing a good bluing with the lever in place especially since it is not blued itself. Is that from years of corrosion? The toggle bolt pin seems not to be the same hue. Is that normal or a repair? And of course what drives me insane are the scratches some idiot put on the side in what must have been an attempt to remove surface rust. Bob ps Overnight, my url's turned into images. Are there elves that do that? Or am I making work for somebody? http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/side_copy1.jpg __________________ Good judgement comes from experience... experience comes from bad judgement.

12-21-2003, 11:18 AM	#8
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,915 Thanks: 1,989 Thanked 4,504 Times in 2,079 Posts	Simoon, I did that. I love to be able "see" the picture and the words right in front of me. The "trick" is to place [img] or if the picture is larger than the screen, a [thumb], while at the end of the url you place [/img] or [/thumb]. img equals image, the first one "tells" the computer that an image follows, the second one "tells" the computer the image is finished. The thumb is code that John D wrote and tells the image to show up as smaller, but allows you to click on it. As an example, your url above, if you click on the icon of the pencil and paper the url is kind of messed up? Then compare it to the url shown here on this page. The img and the /img with brackets would go on each side of the url with out any spaces. It is easier to see than have it explained, <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

12-20-2003, 05:04 PM	#3
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	Beautiful Navy Commercial, Simoon. The edges of the receiver are sharp. The "U" and "B" proofs are sharp and struck with apparently a worn dye. The edges on the side plate are also sharp. I don't see any evidence of buffing. The grips, although reworked by you, look great. It's a great looking piece that smacks of being completely original. To "restore" such a piece would deserve life in prison!

12-20-2003, 10:20 PM	#5
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	Simoon, something that I always key up on is the locking bolt. Few people are able to keep the flatness aas well as the champhered edges while restrawing. The pictures you sent, while good, are not really good enough the really tell. But my guess is the the flat surface looks a bite rounded. Only you can tell because you have the gun in your hands. I see what you mean by the possible buffed proof mark on the left side. But the gun otherwise looks good. Good enough to cast and element of doubt. As long as there is that element of doubt then you should NOT restore this gun. You would only eliminate the element of doubt and then you and everyone else would then know that it is a restored gun for sure. Big Norm

12-21-2003, 09:50 AM	#7
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	Simoon, the toggle pin was originally fire blued and later would have a different hue that the rest of the blue. The different "bluing" under the safety lever is the old ground out lower "Gesichert" marking that was done around 1912 when the first model '06 Navy was modified into the second model to correct a safety problem when the gun was removed from the holster. Again, all correct. The take down lever, as Big Norm suggests, is a question, but one just cannot tell. I agree that the buffing on the side of the frame is aggravating, but doesn't change, IMO, that this piece is basically an original gem.

12-21-2003, 12:53 PM	#9
simoon User Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Central Florida Posts: 27 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	just testing __________________ Good judgement comes from experience... experience comes from bad judgement.

12-21-2003, 01:01 PM	#10
simoon User Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Central Florida Posts: 27 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	It previews OK, but it doesn't appear on the page correctly. I'm lost. __________________ Good judgement comes from experience... experience comes from bad judgement.

12-21-2003, 01:07 PM	#11
simoon User Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Central Florida Posts: 27 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	One more time.... __________________ Good judgement comes from experience... experience comes from bad judgement.

12-21-2003, 01:08 PM	#12
simoon User Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Central Florida Posts: 27 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	I got it!!! Thanks!! __________________ Good judgement comes from experience... experience comes from bad judgement.

12-21-2003, 03:06 PM	#13
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,915 Thanks: 1,989 Thanked 4,504 Times in 2,079 Posts	the space between the [/img] and is what made it not show up, but now that you know what works, it gets easier each time. ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

12-21-2003, 04:03 PM	#14
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,890 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,282 Times in 424 Posts	Simoon, Looking at the photo of the top of the gun, the end of the center toggle retaining pin (which can be seen at the top of the left toggle grip) and the 200-meter number platen are both unblued. These are solid indicators that this Luger retains its original finish. If you have gone through Tom Armstrong's excellent post on authenticating Imperial Navy Lugers and everything is proper, you have a really excellent original Commercial Navy Luger. --Dwight

12-21-2003, 06:48 PM	#15
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,988 Thanks: 1,067 Thanked 5,099 Times in 1,676 Posts	Bob (Simoon) The discolored area under the safety lever is the result of oxidation of the bright polished safety marking style of 1900 and 1906 model Lugers. Some 1906 commercial Navy Lugers were GESICHERT marked, but they are also found with the polished safey area like yours. You have what appears to be a really nice original finished Commercial Navy. Your tie breaker doesn't faze me at all. I still believe it would be a big mistake to restore it. Just my opinion, Ron __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

12-21-2003, 07:29 PM	#16
simoon User Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Central Florida Posts: 27 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Ron, Ed, Herb, Norm, & Dwight, I will not do a thing to this Naval! I'll find an appropriate shooter and send it to Thor. Thanks for your collective insights and help. Happy Holidays to all! Bob __________________ Good judgement comes from experience... experience comes from bad judgement.

12-22-2003, 01:48 PM	#17
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	All, The gun is right as rain and any attempts to enhance it should warrant 30 days in the electric chair. Tom A.

12-22-2003, 01:55 PM	#18
John D. Administrator & Site Owner LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A Little NE of Somewhere... Posts: 2,651 Thanks: 471 Thanked 513 Times in 127 Posts	</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Tom A: <strong>.... any attempts to enhance it should warrant 30 days in the electric chair.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">That's a shocking statement..!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />