New Thompson 1927 A1

[ithacaartist]

I ordered a factory build Deluxe steel model with a 30 rnd. pre-ban stick mag for NY State, and it arrived day before yesterday. A 10-rnd drum mag should arrive today, according to USPS tracking.
It looks great, weighs a TON, overall nice looking work and finish. However, I have a few issues with it.
First, I noticed that the receiver shucks around in the frame a bit; when the rifle is shaken (not stirred) it is audible. This might be better than one that is so tight it won't come apart (and I believe some motion of the arrangement is expected and acceptable) but I'm going to ask Kahr about it to see if what I have is within parameters of acceptability.
Second, the rear grip refuses to mount any other way than to expose the sharp 90 degree corner of the frame that should fit resulting in both surfaces near flush, in the notch in the top of the grip.
Third, I tried the first round in it yesterday. I succumbed to the temptation to touch off a second before I gave it its first break-in cleaning, and nothing! The second round chambered OK,and the action seemed to return fully to battery, but the trigger did not set--no click.
Forgive the stock photo, please; I'll do a run of glamor pics and post when I have the chance. work just became extremely busy, so won't promise when, just asap.

[Edward Tinker]

sweet -- I have heard that sometimes they need some 'tuning' to get them reliable, but i would not mind picking one up. I have a WW2 Tommy, but mine is a deactivated one (all real but the receiver which is solid)

[alanint]

Tommy gun upper and lower receivers should fit SNUG. There should be absolutely no "rattle" berween the two.

[aptech77]

I've heard just the opposite , mine has a bit if a rattle until the mag is installed, and was told by a gun smith that was normal on Thompsons.

[ithacaartist]

I arranged for mine through Tommygunner.com in Olivebridge, N.Y. I dealt with Damon, who appears to run the show. They also offer parts and accessories discounted slightly from MSRP, as are the rifles and Thompson pistols. Depending on which state in which one lives, and if you're able to make the arrangements and pay the SBR tax of $200 on top of all the other expenses, you can obtain a Tommygun which differs from the icon only in the open/closed block (full and semi-auto , respectively) firing system.

Damon advised it's unnecessary to be extra rigorous in break-in regimen, maybe clean and polish the internals after first 10 rounds, as they are hardy and put up with crud well. The owner's manual mentioned that new guns may be tight in the frame/receiver juncture. I may be able to actually measure the extent of the play at either or both ends of the receiver, to have data to give to Kahr when I get ahold of them.

In the early 70's, my wife at the time worked in the service dept of Ithaca Gun Co. I'd pick her up when I was finished with classes at Ithaca College and she was done with work and wait in the waiting area if I was early. Once, a ccustomer came steaming through the door with two Model 37 shotguns; he seemed pretty upset as, red faced, he huffed and puffed his situation to the receptionist--somewhat loudly, as I recall. He wanted to know why there was such a difference in the two shotguns. One was brand new, current production, the other was about 30 years old. He held one in each of his extended grasp and shook them. The one from the 30's was absolutely silent; the brand new one rattled and clacked alarmingly. "How in the world are you supposed to sneak up on a deer with something like this?!" he queried. A good question...

It boils down to money. To produce and hand fit parts to create a good snug action costs more. Statistics concerning tolerances predicts that, given an appropriate range of tolerance for each part, assembly of the firearm is an additive process whereby the parts on the large end of the allowable tolerance add to the total of overall tolerance, while those which are on the smaller end subtract from it. Statistically, an assembly will go together OK if the sum of all the tolerances, negative and positive, is within its own range of acceptability. When too many over-tolerance parts are used, you literally run out of room to fit them together. In this case, one would dis-assemble the action, toss all the parts back into their respective bins, and start over; and usually the law of averages would predict the next assembly to be acceptable. I can see, however, in the case of an overburden of under-spec parts, that one could get the action together easily, but it would be sloppy with the play from dimensions the parts simply do not take up, because they're too small. In the case of a loose action, I think a judgment by Q.C. would be the arbiter of what went out the door, or not.

(Our model 37 20 gauge was bought as a blem at the employee store. She arranged for the guys out in the service area to go over it and tune the action. It must have been magic: The day it was ready, the woodwork had become Supreme Grade Walnut, and an extra vent-rib modified choke barrel accompanied its Deerslayer bbl.!!! Um, unfortunately, I did not receive custody of the '37 in the divorce...)

[alanint]

Originally Posted by aptech77

I've heard just the opposite , mine has a bit if a rattle until the mag is installed, and was told by a gun smith that was normal on Thompsons.

I have to assume yours is also a Kahr Product. Every West Hurley or GI Tommy gun I have ever owned had upper and lower receivers that slip together like a glove....

[rhuff]

My 1928A1 has some minor movement in the frame/receiver, but not rattle loose like an old worn out 1911 pistol. When disassembling/reassembling the two parts, they slide together like beautifully fit parts. There is a lot of machine work involved in the early Thompsons. These replica Thompsons with the 16in bbl. and fire semiauto from an closed bolt are considerably different from the old originals, even though they look the part. They have to be in order to make BATFE happy.

I understand that the quality of fit and finish has improved over what it was in the past. I remember seeing one many years ago at a gunshow, and was not impressed in the least. They are just a classy looking weapon. I fear that if I was to purchase one of the new semi models that I would have to pop for the Tax to make it into a SBR just so it's profile was correct.

Keep us informed as to your discussions with Kahr CS on your findings.

[padredan]

the one pictured is an auto ord/kahr not the same model as the one you have purchased , but i would think trigger frame and upper reciever are. I traded for it whiile working at one of the local pawn shops and it looked to be fired very little. I sold it to someone i knew and he brought it back with some feeding and failure to fire problems . once i test fired it and did some fitting on it and tweaked a few parts he has had no other problems with it, this one had a rather tight upper to lower fit. not sure when it was made ,but at least a year ago. this one seemed to be built rather well, it sure did not rattle.

[lugerholsterrepair]

Third, I tried the first round in it yesterday. I succumbed to the temptation to touch off a second before I gave it its first break-in cleaning, and nothing! The second round chambered OK,and the action seemed to return fully to battery, but the trigger did not set--no click.

David, Sounds like you have bigger problems than a rattle...

[ithacaartist]

The rattle is an aesthetic thing because it would not affect function, unless it were so bad that it could affect the interface in the trigger system. Because some report theirs snug while others report similar play in theirs, I'd have to decide whether or not I insist on its remedy by Kahr.

The failure to c0ck, as I said, happened as the action cycled in operation the first time. I tried about 5 more rounds yesterday without issue. I'm left wondering if it is anomalous, never to occur again after enough rounds to chase the "new" out of the action. Then, again, a gun that screws up on the first shot, right out of the box, Grrrr! Bottom line, if I wind up sending it back for the rattle, I'd have some confidence that all the issues could be successfully addressed by the manufacturer--either by the luck of the draw with a replacement, or by setting a technician or two onto the problems.

I guess there would me one issue more to add to the list: I tried installing the empty drum mag this morning, and although I could get the rails on the mag started in the slots, it took a bunch of wiggling to get it about half way; and I needed to give the mag a bump with the heel of my hand to get it started back out. If I sent it back, they could fit it, too, for me.

Thanks for the scuttlebutt from everyone else's experiences. Hang in there and I'll report my dealings with customer service.

[aptech77]

No, mines a West Hurley, NY Auto Ordinance made 1927A1 SN#5***. Made in the 70's id guess? I have a 50rd drum and 3, 30rd mags. as soon as a mag is loaded, it's nice and tight.

[sheepherder]

A good friend of mine had an M1928 back in the 70's; I too was astonished at how heavy it was...(I was only allowed to hold it, not fire it)...

[rhuff]

They are indeed heavy, especially with a 50 round(L) loaded drum hanging. I have never tried a 100(C) round drum, but can imagine the extra weight. That weight works as an advantage when you rotate the selector switch to "fun' setting, and grab the trigger. They are a fun and historical firearm rolled into one.

[William Hull]

Could someone please explain what SBR means and about the $200 tax.
Excuse, what I am sure, is a basic question.
Thanks,
William

[alanint]

"SBR" means short barreled rifle. In the case of the Tommy gun, these are the offerings from Kahr, which have the original, correct barrel length, which makes them look more authentic. They are still semi-auto, just with the correct, short barrel. The $200 is the transfer tax for registering and owning an "SBR".

[ithacaartist]

Originally Posted by postino

A good friend of mine had an M1928 back in the 70's; I too was astonished at how heavy it was..

I was impressed by its heft. Sure, the specs say 13 pounds, but it's still a bit of a surprise. It would be similar to carrying three bags of sugar. (I had a cat in the 90's that was a two-bagger...)

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by ithacaartist

I was impressed by its heft.

Yours is closed bolt, yes??? Firing a Thompson open bolt full auto must be very disconcerting...I have fired open bolt autos, and was quite surprised that the delay of the bolt hitting the first cartridge was quite perceptible...and that massive Thompson bolt sliding forward must do wonders for the point of aim...

[ithacaartist]

Postino,

Yes, the closed bolt firing is one of the characteristics of the semi-auto. But I guess I need an extramural seminar at Luger U. because I'm not familiar with the mechanical characteristics of the open bolt that make it what it is. I'll Google around, try Wiki, etc. and try to understand it.

Interestingly, I did not sense what you were saying about the point of aim. If you're referring to the possibility of the bolt's momentum taking it off target--behaving like a Luger which is limp-wristed?--, I think the massive mass (heh) of the rifle minimizes that; plus it has a compensator. I think I'm not talking agout the same thing you mean, as what I describe is about the bolt on the way back, not forward. If that's it, then it might be that a proper ratio is maintained when comparing the weight of the entire gun to the weight of its bolt. I got it on the paper with most of the test shots, but I'm still trying to get comfortable with the sighting system. Reading glasses help with the front blade, but the rear notch is virtually invisible to me. the ring of the peep sight, when raised, is likewise a fuzzy halo for me. Would the military style of rear sight help me any? Maybe a scope...

[alanint]

The Full Auto Thompsons are actually quite smooth, once you get used to hefting the weight and holding them on target. There is virtually no muzzle climb, due to the weight and they can quite easely be held onto a target out beyond 50 yards.

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by ithacaartist

...I'm not familiar with the mechanical characteristics of the open bolt that make it what it is....

I've fired a Sten, an MP-40, and an Uzi...All open bolt full auto...And there is a delay from when you pull the trigger and the bolt is in motion and finally strikes the cartridge...A noticeable delay; maybe a quarter or even a half second...

And while the bolt is being driven forward by the recoil spring there is an equal force pushing backwards (Newton's Third Law) and this gives the smg a floating feeling...And none of these is especially light, but the feeling of that mass in motion gives them a very light fluttery feeling...

...YMMV...