Persian Luger

Big Norm · 12-26-2002, 09:24 PM

OK gentlemen, I received my Christmas present to myself today, a Persian artillery. I went through all my books and found them wanting. So I want to open this up for discussion.

www.gunbroker.com/auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=6644245

I believe that the barrel has been rebarreled. The witness lines are just a tad off. But after reading about this gun, I think that this is proper. The front sight has what appears to be a double crown with a "U" under them. This marking also appears on the left side of the frame in front of the serial number. The rear sight has the Farsi number on the leaf, but the adjustible tang sight has "97" not in Farsi on the right side. This number does not correspond to the serial number of "3767" as it appears on the front of the frame and on the left side of the receiver. The serial number does not appear on the underside of the barrel. There are marking on the underside of the barrel and they look smaller in size than the numbers one would find on the extractor of a conventional luger. These markings are what would appear the be maybe a crown with "MP" under it and then 9M.M .752 then two indistinguishable dinks, and finally 5.9 TONS. This marks run the length of the barrel British style But much smaller that I have seen on other British proof marked guns. John Walter in his book 'The Luger Book' said that Mauser did not make the barrels. But rather they transferred from BKIW in 1930. Who was BKIW?
The leather accessories are in excellent shape, but the straps have a 2.5" X 0.5" metal tag rivited to them. The tag is badly pitted but I don't think that that was anything previously imprinted on it. There are no markings on the holster or magazine pouch. The stock has marking on the wood in Farsi. It looks like a "3" and then a "V" lying on its side with the point pointing to the left, then there is a zero and finally there is what looks like a rough open four. Neither the lazy "V" or the four looks like anything in any of my books or on the rear sight leaf.
Well I am going to put some oil on my Christmas present. It will give me a chance to see if there are any other unusual items on this luger.
Big Norm <img src="graemlins/r.gif" border="0" alt="[king]" />

Edward Tinker · 12-26-2002, 09:46 PM

Cool Nig Norm, when you get pictures, post em or send em to me and I'll post them for you.

Now, I just need to get over to your neck of the woods and see these beauties!

Ed

Navy · 12-26-2002, 10:06 PM

Judging from the pic alone, the gun is not right. Assuming you still have right of return, notify the seller its coming back, I have owned several of these over the years anr it sounds like you have a Christmas TURKEY, Ditch it,

Tom A.

Big Norm · 12-26-2002, 10:10 PM

Ed,
I really want to show my Lugers on the forum. I am studying now what kind of camera I can use with my computer. It seems that the only way that I can tell what I can use on my Mac Performa 6400/200 w/system 8.6 is to look at the side of the boxes for the camera. That is a time consuming process and I feel quilty tying up a camera salesman for a long time.
With this Luger I now have the full set of artilleries and you know how I love my bragging. While this gun does not have a matching stock and mag three of my guns do and only one of the remaining three does not have a matching mag. They would make a nice picture of my 'family'.
Now for the full set of navies...
Big Norm

Big Norm · 12-27-2002, 11:11 PM

Thank you Tom, Heinz and Tac for your help. Tac, I have to apologize for some bad writing on my part. The first character I took as a Fausi "3". A Fausi "3" can sometimes be hard to differentiate for a Fausi "4" to an amateur like me. The "V" did not point up or down but rather the the left. The zero that I mentioned was not a zero but rather a dot which is a zero in Fausi. The rough open four was hard for me to describe. I guess that that was something that you would have to see to understand. I did a pretty bad job of writing. Sorry.
But as I was writing I began to see other things wrong with the gun. As inspection continued, the negatives began to add up.
(1) The number '97' on the side of the rear sights adjustible tang. All my books indicated that the small parts were numbered in Fausi.
(2) The witness marks did not align properly.
(3) There was a touch-up with a buffing wheel on the right side in the well between the trigger pin and the locking bolt.
(4) In daylight, there was a difference in the blue between the barrel and the receiver.
(5) On the holster, the attaching iron cup did not match in color and was not stitched to the strap.
Things began to just not add up. So I sent the gun back this afternoon. But I would be lying if Tom A's blunt post above didn't jar a bit of emotion out of my system and make me take a closer look. Thats good because there was too much money involved to keep a bad Luger.
Thanks to everybody.
Big Norm

Navy · 12-28-2002, 09:03 AM

Big Norm,

I assure you I was not trying to be impolite, but with Persian LPs going for several thousands, I felt direct language was appropriate.

I'd druther run the risk of offending you than having you stuck with a second Christmas Turkey.

Throughout my lack-luster military career I was frequently counseled for lack of tact, FWIW.

Tom A. [img]biggrin.gif[/img]

Kyrie · 12-28-2002, 01:43 PM

Hi Big Norm,

Alas, I must concur with Tom and Tacfoley - this one should go back if possible. Persian Artilleries were marked completely in Farsi, including the proof marks and small parts. See the Persian Artillery under Ã¢??ArtilleriesÃ¢?? in the folders named Ã¢??KyrieÃ¢?? in the Ã¢??Old OwnersÃ¢?? CornerÃ¢??.

This sounds like a FrankenLuger :-(

Warm regards,

Kyrie

Big Norm · 12-28-2002, 10:27 PM

Tom A and Tac,
don't worry about it. Over time I have learned that there are some guys on this forum whose opinions I respect. You two gentlemen fall in that catagory. Tom A, that is why I sent you an email instead of getting huffy about it.I knew you had something important to say. Thanks again. If we ever meet, I owe you so many coffees that I will have to bring a pot of the stuff with me.
I would like it if there was more discussion on this gun because the books are so lacking. Too much history and not enough detail on markings. I could have mentally justified this gun but the buffing and touch up was something that I consider a real sin in Luger collecting. Datigs book was so far off that I just slammed it shut.
Big Norm

Navy · 12-28-2002, 10:33 PM

Tac,

You and I would have been the...avoided with all dispatch.

Should you find your self ....... let me know. A good meal, spirits and companionship are offered.

Tom A. <img src="graemlins/drink.gif" border="0" alt="[cherrsagai]" />

Navy · 12-28-2002, 10:37 PM

Norm,

Fred's book is how old? Get new references, fer chris' sake!

Hope you can get your money back amicably; If there is a problem along those lines, I have a strategy that I have used successfully in the past.

Happy New year,

Tom A.

Big Norm · 01-02-2003, 02:41 AM

Tom A,
ya, Datigs book is beyond dated. But the reason I bought it was I was told it was a good book to help me disassemble my 1893 DWM Borchardt. Datigs book was just one of many books I have and used to help me with the Persian artillery. With the Persian I was looking for anything that would help me examine my purchase. Walters book was the best but Kenyon and Stills books didn't help much in looking for details on markings. Markings are not the same on Persians as they are on WW1 artilleries. I don't mean the toggle or left side of the frame markings. There were other markings on the gun that were either not mentioned in any book or could not be seen in the pictures. I don't have anybody, locally, that I thought could help me decide on keeping my purchase so I turned to the reliable forum.
Big Norm

12-26-2002, 09:24 PM	#1
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	Persian Luger OK gentlemen, I received my Christmas present to myself today, a Persian artillery. I went through all my books and found them wanting. So I want to open this up for discussion. www.gunbroker.com/auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=6644245 I believe that the barrel has been rebarreled. The witness lines are just a tad off. But after reading about this gun, I think that this is proper. The front sight has what appears to be a double crown with a "U" under them. This marking also appears on the left side of the frame in front of the serial number. The rear sight has the Farsi number on the leaf, but the adjustible tang sight has "97" not in Farsi on the right side. This number does not correspond to the serial number of "3767" as it appears on the front of the frame and on the left side of the receiver. The serial number does not appear on the underside of the barrel. There are marking on the underside of the barrel and they look smaller in size than the numbers one would find on the extractor of a conventional luger. These markings are what would appear the be maybe a crown with "MP" under it and then 9M.M .752 then two indistinguishable dinks, and finally 5.9 TONS. This marks run the length of the barrel British style But much smaller that I have seen on other British proof marked guns. John Walter in his book 'The Luger Book' said that Mauser did not make the barrels. But rather they transferred from BKIW in 1930. Who was BKIW? The leather accessories are in excellent shape, but the straps have a 2.5" X 0.5" metal tag rivited to them. The tag is badly pitted but I don't think that that was anything previously imprinted on it. There are no markings on the holster or magazine pouch. The stock has marking on the wood in Farsi. It looks like a "3" and then a "V" lying on its side with the point pointing to the left, then there is a zero and finally there is what looks like a rough open four. Neither the lazy "V" or the four looks like anything in any of my books or on the rear sight leaf. Well I am going to put some oil on my Christmas present. It will give me a chance to see if there are any other unusual items on this luger. Big Norm <img src="graemlins/r.gif" border="0" alt="[king]" />

12-26-2002, 09:46 PM	#2
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,911 Thanks: 1,986 Thanked 4,502 Times in 2,077 Posts	Cool Nig Norm, when you get pictures, post em or send em to me and I'll post them for you. Now, I just need to get over to your neck of the woods and see these beauties! Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

12-26-2002, 10:06 PM	#3
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	Judging from the pic alone, the gun is not right. Assuming you still have right of return, notify the seller its coming back, I have owned several of these over the years anr it sounds like you have a Christmas TURKEY, Ditch it, Tom A.

12-26-2002, 10:10 PM	#4
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	Ed, I really want to show my Lugers on the forum. I am studying now what kind of camera I can use with my computer. It seems that the only way that I can tell what I can use on my Mac Performa 6400/200 w/system 8.6 is to look at the side of the boxes for the camera. That is a time consuming process and I feel quilty tying up a camera salesman for a long time. With this Luger I now have the full set of artilleries and you know how I love my bragging. While this gun does not have a matching stock and mag three of my guns do and only one of the remaining three does not have a matching mag. They would make a nice picture of my 'family'. Now for the full set of navies... Big Norm

12-27-2002, 11:11 PM	#5
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	Thank you Tom, Heinz and Tac for your help. Tac, I have to apologize for some bad writing on my part. The first character I took as a Fausi "3". A Fausi "3" can sometimes be hard to differentiate for a Fausi "4" to an amateur like me. The "V" did not point up or down but rather the the left. The zero that I mentioned was not a zero but rather a dot which is a zero in Fausi. The rough open four was hard for me to describe. I guess that that was something that you would have to see to understand. I did a pretty bad job of writing. Sorry. But as I was writing I began to see other things wrong with the gun. As inspection continued, the negatives began to add up. (1) The number '97' on the side of the rear sights adjustible tang. All my books indicated that the small parts were numbered in Fausi. (2) The witness marks did not align properly. (3) There was a touch-up with a buffing wheel on the right side in the well between the trigger pin and the locking bolt. (4) In daylight, there was a difference in the blue between the barrel and the receiver. (5) On the holster, the attaching iron cup did not match in color and was not stitched to the strap. Things began to just not add up. So I sent the gun back this afternoon. But I would be lying if Tom A's blunt post above didn't jar a bit of emotion out of my system and make me take a closer look. Thats good because there was too much money involved to keep a bad Luger. Thanks to everybody. Big Norm

12-28-2002, 09:03 AM	#6
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	Big Norm, I assure you I was not trying to be impolite, but with Persian LPs going for several thousands, I felt direct language was appropriate. I'd druther run the risk of offending you than having you stuck with a second Christmas Turkey. Throughout my lack-luster military career I was frequently counseled for lack of tact, FWIW. Tom A. [img]biggrin.gif[/img]

12-28-2002, 01:43 PM	#7
Kyrie User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 757 Thanks: 0 Thanked 212 Times in 101 Posts	Hi Big Norm, Alas, I must concur with Tom and Tacfoley - this one should go back if possible. Persian Artilleries were marked completely in Farsi, including the proof marks and small parts. See the Persian Artillery under Ã¢??ArtilleriesÃ¢?? in the folders named Ã¢??KyrieÃ¢?? in the Ã¢??Old OwnersÃ¢?? CornerÃ¢??. This sounds like a FrankenLuger :-( Warm regards, Kyrie

12-28-2002, 10:27 PM	#8
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	Tom A and Tac, don't worry about it. Over time I have learned that there are some guys on this forum whose opinions I respect. You two gentlemen fall in that catagory. Tom A, that is why I sent you an email instead of getting huffy about it.I knew you had something important to say. Thanks again. If we ever meet, I owe you so many coffees that I will have to bring a pot of the stuff with me. I would like it if there was more discussion on this gun because the books are so lacking. Too much history and not enough detail on markings. I could have mentally justified this gun but the buffing and touch up was something that I consider a real sin in Luger collecting. Datigs book was so far off that I just slammed it shut. Big Norm

12-28-2002, 10:33 PM	#9
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	Tac, You and I would have been the...avoided with all dispatch. Should you find your self ....... let me know. A good meal, spirits and companionship are offered. Tom A. <img src="graemlins/drink.gif" border="0" alt="[cherrsagai]" />

12-28-2002, 10:37 PM	#10
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	Norm, Fred's book is how old? Get new references, fer chris' sake! Hope you can get your money back amicably; If there is a problem along those lines, I have a strategy that I have used successfully in the past. Happy New year, Tom A.

01-02-2003, 02:41 AM	#11
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	Tom A, ya, Datigs book is beyond dated. But the reason I bought it was I was told it was a good book to help me disassemble my 1893 DWM Borchardt. Datigs book was just one of many books I have and used to help me with the Persian artillery. With the Persian I was looking for anything that would help me examine my purchase. Walters book was the best but Kenyon and Stills books didn't help much in looking for details on markings. Markings are not the same on Persians as they are on WW1 artilleries. I don't mean the toggle or left side of the frame markings. There were other markings on the gun that were either not mentioned in any book or could not be seen in the pictures. I don't have anybody, locally, that I thought could help me decide on keeping my purchase so I turned to the reliable forum. Big Norm