Is my Luger jammed?

Enoch · 09-01-2011, 12:35 PM

As will shortly become painfully obvious, I know nothing about Lugers. I inherited my dad's Luger when he passed away and basically locked it in my (his old) gun cabinet and haven't touched it in years. Recently my son expressed an interest in seeing it so I hauled it out and tried to show him how one would chamber a round. The "thing" that you grab on either side and pull straight up on only slid back about an inch and then stopped. Also, the safety is in the down position and I can't slide it up. I tried inserting a magazine thinking perhaps the gun required a magazine in order to be "cocked" but that didn't have any impact. The gun, from the outside, appears to be well oiled and there's no rust or significant loss of blueing. In other words it hasn't been allowed to deteriorate and has never been misused. Can anyone help me understand either what I'm doing wrong or what may be wrong with the gun? Thanks in advance for any assistance anyone may be willing to offer.

nukem556 · 09-01-2011, 12:41 PM

Long shot here, but if its an early Luger, you can't pull straight up on the toggles to open, you need to pull straight BACK first to clear the toggle lock.

Enoch · 09-01-2011, 12:50 PM

This is the gun. Could it really be that simple; I was just pulling in the wrong direction, up instead of back? But why can't I slide the safety?

Ron Wood · 09-01-2011, 01:10 PM

Please show a photo of the safety side of the gun. Also remove the right side grip (the one shown in your photo) and photograph the internals. It could be incorrectly assembled or it could be gummed up. The additonal photos may help troubleshoot.

Enoch · 09-01-2011, 01:18 PM

Here's an image of the safety side. I'm afraid providing an image of the gun minus the grip will have to wait until this weekend when I'll have time to disassemble it.

Enoch · 09-01-2011, 01:37 PM

Stupid question - Is the reason I can't slide the slide because the safety is engaged (down position)? And does that then mean that the slide is working fine (it shouldn't go back because it's not supposed to when the safety is engaged) and my real problem is that the safety mechanism is jammed? In other words once I get the safety to disengage the slide will slide back. Sorry, this is all rocket science to me.

John Sabato · 09-01-2011, 02:14 PM

Enoch, the answer to your questions is yes. I see no reason why the safety lever should be stuck in the down position. You should be able to swing it right up to the upper position.

Where in Northern VA do you live? I work in DC and live in Winchester... if you are close by, I could possibly make a detour and take a look at it for you.

Xerato · 09-01-2011, 02:23 PM

Seeking clarification on this point:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Enoch

Is the reason I can't slide the slide because the safety is engaged (down position)?

Is this actually the case, that having the safety-on prevents the toggle from being worked?
Because I have noticed this on my Luger: sometimes, I can't pull the toggle all the way when safety is on, other times it is not a problem. Is this a sign of mis-assembly, or is this by design?

I ask because I can't see any mechanism or reason that would prevent the toggle from raising when the safety is on, but that's the way it behaves.

Enoch · 09-01-2011, 02:27 PM

Sending Mr. Sabato a PM now

Xerato · 09-01-2011, 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Enoch

Is the reason I can't slide the slide because the safety is engaged (down position)?

I found some additional info on this. I noticed this seems to only be a problem when I am cleaning the gun or dry-firing it, I never noticed this problem when live-firing.
This I found on another forum explains why:

http://luger.gunboards.com/showthrea...4653#post84653

Quote:

Your pistol is acting correct. You should not be able to rack it open if the firing pin is not cocked and the safety is on.

In this configuration the safety bar keeps the sear bar from moving outward when the firing pin moves rearward.

With the firing pin non cocked watch the sear bar as you pull back the toggle. It moves out due to the lug on the firing pin passing under it. When it is cocked the lug is already behind the the sear bar so it will not move outward and bind.

Jerry

I don't know if this information is correct or not, but sounds like exactly the problem I have been seeing: if I dry-fire the pistol, then put it on safe, I cannot open the toggle.

Enoch · 09-01-2011, 02:42 PM

Sounds like exactly what is happening with mine. As I mentioned earlier, this was one of my father's prized possesions and while I never do anything with it (I practically never touch it) I do keep it oiled and check it once or twice a year to make sure it's not rusting or otherwise deteriorating. Now I guess I need to figure out why the safety is stuck.

Ron Wood · 09-01-2011, 02:42 PM

Your Luger has what is called a "relieved" sear bar (a modification to the design that happened around 1913). This feature allows the toggle to be opened far enough to safely remove a round from the chamber to clear the weapon, but not far enough to completely cycle the action. To be able to fully retract the toggle the safety must be in the "up" postion so that the GESICHERT marking is covered and the little silver "flag" that blocks the sear is retracted. If you cannot move the safety there is a pretty good chance that it is just gummed up after all of these years and bit of penetrating oil on the "flag" and the pivot point of the safety lever might free it up. To do this you will have to carefully remove the left grip. The carefully is underscored because it is very easy to break the grip panel just below the safety lever. Remove the grip screw and reach into magazine opening with your finger and lift up on the bottom of the grip panel just enough to clear the grip frame at the bottom, then gently pull the grip panel straight down until it is out from under the frame and safety lever. It may help to push in on the magazine release button to make it easier to pull the grip panel down.

mrerick · 09-01-2011, 02:52 PM

(Overlapped writing this note with Ron's above...)

There was a change made to the Sear early on to relieve the sear so that the Luger could be opened part of the way with the safety engaged.

Your WW-II era Luger does have that cut in the sear (just forward of where the safety lever contacts the sear).

If you remove the Left grip, be very careful not to chip it in the area of the safety lever. This is a common problem caused by lifting the grip too far off the side of the frame after removing it's screw.

Your Luger looks to be in very good condition, original finish and likely has all matching numbered parts. If that's the case it's collectible. Please consider not firing it, since breaking a part considerably reduces it's value, and destroys some of it's history.

You would do well to consider John's offer since there may be a round stuck in it. Even when a Luger is taken apart, it can still fire since the sear can still be cocking the internal firing pin. Please be careful.

Marc

John Sabato · 09-01-2011, 02:56 PM

Ron, I would also add, that if the gun is not cocked, the firing pin will not be able to move over the sear because the safety is on... giving exactly the symptoms that are being described about not being able to pull the toggle open...

I doubt there is a round in the chamber, because the extractor is flush with the breechblock in one of the photos. It would be "up" with the word "geladen" exposed if there were a round in the chamber.

It appears to me that there may already be a very minor grip chip in the left grip... but still be careful if you decide to remove the grip yourself.

PM sent back for coordination with the OP on a possible visit.

Enoch · 09-01-2011, 03:04 PM

I'm fairly certain the gun is not loaded as I have, since my father's passing, had the breach (right word?) open and have never loaded it. A recent suggestion was that I not fire it. Have no fear, as I mentioned earlier, I seldom touch it other than to make a visual inspection of its exterior. Even when I do that I handle it through an oiled (Breakfree) rag. Since my father died it's only been handled without the rag once.

Curly1 · 09-01-2011, 05:13 PM

Always assume it is loaded when you pick it up and until you visually verify it is not.

It's a habit I have acquired even if I "know" it isn't loaded.

The road to negligent discharges resulting in tragedies is littered with " I thought it wasn't loaded"

Enoch · 09-02-2011, 07:53 AM

Just wanted to get back to everyone re: my plans and will then post again (probably Monday) with the results.

I'm going to execute Mr. Wood's & Mr. Sabato's suggestion re: employing penetrating oil, waiting overnight and then applying a little extra oomph to swing the safety lever. I have a feeling that's the problem and that with adequate lubrication I'll be able to correct it (let's hope so anyway). I'm not going to take the grips off until I'm confident the other method doesn't work. Can anyone please recommend an oil that doesn't cost a million dollars and that I don't have to order on-line? Preserving the gun is my paramount concern though so if I need something expensive that has to be ordered, so be it.

Lastly, how does one go about "officially" thanking someone on this message board? There're a couple gentlemen here whose kind assistance I'd very much like to acknowledge.

Enoch · 09-02-2011, 08:28 AM

Figured I'd post an image of the proof marks (right term?) in case anyone was interested. By the way, if anyone wants to educate me re: those marks and provide details re: what each one actually means I'd be very grateful. I realize I can get that information via research but if someone who knows would just tell me it would be so much easier. Yeah, I'm a little lazy

Also, my only other thread on this message board is from a few years ago when I was considering selling the gun (not considering that anymore, wound up selling a vintage Gibson mandolin to get the money I needed at the time) but, again, for the curious, there're pictures of the holster and magazines there. The thread is entitled "My Dad's WWII Luger..." Skal!

sheepherder · 09-02-2011, 07:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Enoch

Can anyone please recommend an oil that doesn't cost a million dollars and that I don't have to order on-line?

3in1 Oil at any hardware store (Ace, Valu, Home Depot, etc).

Quote:

Lastly, how does one go about "officially" thanking someone on this message board?

Click on the 'thumbs-up' in the lower right hand corner of their post...

Enoch · 09-04-2011, 04:30 AM

Just wanted to let those interested know that lubricating the safety lever worked like a charm. It now swings freely and all is right with the world. Thank you all for your help.

09-01-2011, 12:35 PM	#1
Enoch User Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Northern VA Posts: 18 Thanks: 4 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Is my Luger jammed? As will shortly become painfully obvious, I know nothing about Lugers. I inherited my dad's Luger when he passed away and basically locked it in my (his old) gun cabinet and haven't touched it in years. Recently my son expressed an interest in seeing it so I hauled it out and tried to show him how one would chamber a round. The "thing" that you grab on either side and pull straight up on only slid back about an inch and then stopped. Also, the safety is in the down position and I can't slide it up. I tried inserting a magazine thinking perhaps the gun required a magazine in order to be "cocked" but that didn't have any impact. The gun, from the outside, appears to be well oiled and there's no rust or significant loss of blueing. In other words it hasn't been allowed to deteriorate and has never been misused. Can anyone help me understand either what I'm doing wrong or what may be wrong with the gun? Thanks in advance for any assistance anyone may be willing to offer.

09-01-2011, 12:50 PM	#3
Enoch User Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Northern VA Posts: 18 Thanks: 4 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	This is the gun. Could it really be that simple; I was just pulling in the wrong direction, up instead of back? But why can't I slide the safety? Attached Images

09-01-2011, 01:10 PM	#4
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,987 Thanks: 1,065 Thanked 5,090 Times in 1,675 Posts	Please show a photo of the safety side of the gun. Also remove the right side grip (the one shown in your photo) and photograph the internals. It could be incorrectly assembled or it could be gummed up. The additonal photos may help troubleshoot. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

09-01-2011, 01:18 PM	#5
Enoch User Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Northern VA Posts: 18 Thanks: 4 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Here's an image of the safety side. I'm afraid providing an image of the gun minus the grip will have to wait until this weekend when I'll have time to disassemble it. Attached Images

09-01-2011, 02:14 PM	#7
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Enoch, the answer to your questions is yes. I see no reason why the safety lever should be stuck in the down position. You should be able to swing it right up to the upper position. Where in Northern VA do you live? I work in DC and live in Winchester... if you are close by, I could possibly make a detour and take a look at it for you. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

09-01-2011, 12:41 PM	#2
nukem556 User Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Irmo, SC Posts: 625 Thanks: 35 Thanked 168 Times in 107 Posts	Long shot here, but if its an early Luger, you can't pull straight up on the toggles to open, you need to pull straight BACK first to clear the toggle lock.

09-01-2011, 01:37 PM	#6
Enoch User Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Northern VA Posts: 18 Thanks: 4 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Stupid question - Is the reason I can't slide the slide because the safety is engaged (down position)? And does that then mean that the slide is working fine (it shouldn't go back because it's not supposed to when the safety is engaged) and my real problem is that the safety mechanism is jammed? In other words once I get the safety to disengage the slide will slide back. Sorry, this is all rocket science to me.

09-01-2011, 02:27 PM	#9
Enoch User Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Northern VA Posts: 18 Thanks: 4 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Sending Mr. Sabato a PM now

09-01-2011, 02:42 PM	#11
Enoch User Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Northern VA Posts: 18 Thanks: 4 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Sounds like exactly what is happening with mine. As I mentioned earlier, this was one of my father's prized possesions and while I never do anything with it (I practically never touch it) I do keep it oiled and check it once or twice a year to make sure it's not rusting or otherwise deteriorating. Now I guess I need to figure out why the safety is stuck.

09-01-2011, 02:52 PM	#13
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,900 Thanks: 1,372 Thanked 3,094 Times in 1,503 Posts	(Overlapped writing this note with Ron's above...) There was a change made to the Sear early on to relieve the sear so that the Luger could be opened part of the way with the safety engaged. Your WW-II era Luger does have that cut in the sear (just forward of where the safety lever contacts the sear). If you remove the Left grip, be very careful not to chip it in the area of the safety lever. This is a common problem caused by lifting the grip too far off the side of the frame after removing it's screw. Your Luger looks to be in very good condition, original finish and likely has all matching numbered parts. If that's the case it's collectible. Please consider not firing it, since breaking a part considerably reduces it's value, and destroys some of it's history. You would do well to consider John's offer since there may be a round stuck in it. Even when a Luger is taken apart, it can still fire since the sear can still be cocking the internal firing pin. Please be careful. Marc __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

09-01-2011, 02:56 PM	#14
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Ron, I would also add, that if the gun is not cocked, the firing pin will not be able to move over the sear because the safety is on... giving exactly the symptoms that are being described about not being able to pull the toggle open... I doubt there is a round in the chamber, because the extractor is flush with the breechblock in one of the photos. It would be "up" with the word "geladen" exposed if there were a round in the chamber. It appears to me that there may already be a very minor grip chip in the left grip... but still be careful if you decide to remove the grip yourself. PM sent back for coordination with the OP on a possible visit. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

09-01-2011, 03:04 PM	#15
Enoch User Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Northern VA Posts: 18 Thanks: 4 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I'm fairly certain the gun is not loaded as I have, since my father's passing, had the breach (right word?) open and have never loaded it. A recent suggestion was that I not fire it. Have no fear, as I mentioned earlier, I seldom touch it other than to make a visual inspection of its exterior. Even when I do that I handle it through an oiled (Breakfree) rag. Since my father died it's only been handled without the rag once.

09-01-2011, 05:13 PM	#16
Curly1 User Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Upstate New York Posts: 1,229 Thanks: 111 Thanked 702 Times in 364 Posts	Always assume it is loaded when you pick it up and until you visually verify it is not. It's a habit I have acquired even if I "know" it isn't loaded. The road to negligent discharges resulting in tragedies is littered with " I thought it wasn't loaded" __________________ Laugh hard and often. Gary

09-02-2011, 07:53 AM	#17
Enoch User Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Northern VA Posts: 18 Thanks: 4 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Just wanted to get back to everyone re: my plans and will then post again (probably Monday) with the results. I'm going to execute Mr. Wood's & Mr. Sabato's suggestion re: employing penetrating oil, waiting overnight and then applying a little extra oomph to swing the safety lever. I have a feeling that's the problem and that with adequate lubrication I'll be able to correct it (let's hope so anyway). I'm not going to take the grips off until I'm confident the other method doesn't work. Can anyone please recommend an oil that doesn't cost a million dollars and that I don't have to order on-line? Preserving the gun is my paramount concern though so if I need something expensive that has to be ordered, so be it. Lastly, how does one go about "officially" thanking someone on this message board? There're a couple gentlemen here whose kind assistance I'd very much like to acknowledge.

09-02-2011, 08:28 AM	#18
Enoch User Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Northern VA Posts: 18 Thanks: 4 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Figured I'd post an image of the proof marks (right term?) in case anyone was interested. By the way, if anyone wants to educate me re: those marks and provide details re: what each one actually means I'd be very grateful. I realize I can get that information via research but if someone who knows would just tell me it would be so much easier. Yeah, I'm a little lazy Also, my only other thread on this message board is from a few years ago when I was considering selling the gun (not considering that anymore, wound up selling a vintage Gibson mandolin to get the money I needed at the time) but, again, for the curious, there're pictures of the holster and magazines there. The thread is entitled "My Dad's WWII Luger..." Skal! Attached Images

09-04-2011, 04:30 AM	#20
Enoch User Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Northern VA Posts: 18 Thanks: 4 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Just wanted to let those interested know that lubricating the safety lever worked like a charm. It now swings freely and all is right with the world. Thank you all for your help.