[Italy] Found a Luger on a lake bottom.

Nick_70 · 11-20-2006, 07:14 AM

Hi all,

I'm an Italian diver and found this pistol underwater, on one of the Italian's lakes bottom.

I would really appreciate your help in finding out some of the history of this gun, if it's possible. But, not for collection or shooting reason, because unfortunately the gun is a "wreck", means that it was rendered unusable by torning and benting it badly.

The Barrel is missing with a part of the chaber/frame that was torn out. The handle-grip (?) is badly bented and the wood grips are gone. Also the Barrel-Receiver group is badly smashed with the frame, impossible to dissasemble it.

Reading some of the thread of this serious and knoledgeable Forum I was able to locate some ID marks on the Gun, but I'm attaching one pic that I hope would say more then my bad English (I have more, if needed).

The Toggle is marked as "S/42" while most of the other parts are marked as "33". The Trigger is marked "35". There is also a mark on the handle-grip(?) that say "0(?).M9.15."

What do you think?

Tks in advance for any help on this!

Bye, Nick

John Sabato · 11-20-2006, 08:20 AM

Welcome to the Lugerforum... Your English is quite good. Much better than my rusty Italian...

The Luger that you have found appears to be the result of a collision with an artillery or mortar explosion.

Despite the physical damage, the condition of the metal seem to be very good for being under water for a very long time.

Without a complete serial number, the history we can tell you about this Luger is limited.

If there is a 4-digit serial number on the front of the frame above the trigger guard, then we can tell you a bit more about this gun. Can you please show a photo of this area in sharp focus? With the complete serial number we can probably tell you exactly what year it was manufactured.

From what I see in the photo, and from what you have told me, this gun was a police Luger because there is evidence that it had the sear safety, and magazine safety typical of that model.

S/42 on the toggle indicates that this pistol was manufactured by Mauser, approximately sometime from 1936 to 1939. If the trigger, magazine release and safety lever appear to have been blue like the rest of the pistol, then the gun was made after the change from straw parts sometime in 1937, if the parts appear to have been "strawed" or yellow in color, then the pistol was made before the middle of 1937.

The stamped numbers on the grip are a unit number, which unfortunately, I do not have a reference to tell you which unit, but it would most likely be a German police unit.

I think your Luger would look good mounted on a wood plaque as a wall decoration. A very unique war souvenier...

I hope this information has been helpful.

Nick_70 · 11-20-2006, 08:43 AM

Hi John, thanks a lot for the quick answer (and for the pity showed about my English...)!

There is actually something prited, a "2" or another "3", on above the trigger guard, but is barely readeble, apart the last two digit that are the same as the other on other parts: "33".

the trigger, magazine release and safety lever seems to be same as the rest of the pistol, so like you said it should be from around the '37.

And, yes even if wrecked, is going to be a very nice souvenir, along with some other stuff like different ammunitions, stuff really easy to find over here...

Nick

Nick_70 · 11-20-2006, 08:57 AM

Some other detail...

Nick_70 · 11-20-2006, 09:01 AM

...

Nick_70 · 11-20-2006, 09:05 AM

I know is too bad to watch...

(I myself would rather have found it in his original shape!!!

)

...

Nick_70 · 11-20-2006, 09:07 AM

and last...

Vlim · 11-20-2006, 09:14 AM

Hi,

A nice find. Indeed, it's serial number is 233 (with a letter which is illegible). The pistol also has been furbished as a police pistol, the sear safety and the magazine safety are present. Furthermore, the magazine safety is intact (it was removed or partially removed after a certain date on most police guns).

S/42 identifies the toggle as a Mauser toggle, around 1934 - 1935, the frame (with identification) is most probably an earlier DWM made frame. DWM frames were used in early Mauser production.

The magazine is an extruded type, made by Haenel.

A police luger expert could fill you in on some of the details.

ps. You may want to check if the gun still has rounds in the magazine. These too can help you to identify the pistol's history.

Could it be that this pistol was destroyed using some sort of hydraulic press and dumped shortly after the war as part of a disarming scheme?

Lugerdoc · 11-20-2006, 10:09 AM

GvV, I agree with your analysis. The suffix letter on the frame appears to me to be a "g or a y", but either letter is too late for a 1934 or 35, so perhaps a 1936, if a "G" block. TH

Steinar · 11-20-2006, 10:13 AM

Very interesting find Nick! ..did you find some other items also?

Have anyone seen metal twisted this way after an heavy explosion?

John Sabato · 11-20-2006, 10:25 AM

Gerben V., Lugerdoc, and Nick,

having seen other views of this Luger, I now agree with Gerben that this Luger was intentionally destroyed, probably using hydraulic equipment as he suggests... the forces necessary to squeeze the toggle as shown were very strong... it may have been some type of chopping machine.

The serial number, I believe is 3233, as a close examination of the front of the frame shows a profile for a three, very similar to the last two digits, before the "2"

The suffix is likely a "u'... I don't think it is a "y" because the top of the mark does not look like the "y" suffix marks I have seen, but it does look like the "u"...

perhaps one of you could look up 3233u and get a closer fix on when this gun was made...

Since the magazine was still in the pistol, I also believe that there may be ammunition still there as well.

Edward Tinker · 11-20-2006, 10:48 AM

okay, it has a unit marking on the grip, so this brings up some intersting thoughts...

Sear safeties were put on AFTER 1932, but magazine safeties were taken off after 1935...

The marking S/42 was on slightly later guns as said above...

Unit markings were no longer allowed after a certain point.

I wonder if this is a put together gun, AFTER WW2 and was disposed of by someone...

Ed

Jack Lawman · 11-20-2006, 11:16 AM

It looks to me as if this pistol was crushed hydraulically along with other pistols or equipment. The forces exerted on that luger came from different directions. This would suggest multiple passes through the press (I doubt that), or more likely it was crushed in a pile.

I'd be surprised if that lake bottom wasn't littered with the remains of equipment (at least at one time).

Jack

Nick_70 · 11-20-2006, 12:00 PM

Hey guys!

I knew this one would have fire up some interest in finding a bit of his story...

Well... Gerben, John, there's no ammunition in there, as far as I can see.

And, yes, the bottom of our lakes are, obiouvsly, littered with thousand of different pieces of any kind. From big cannons to small machine-gun and rifles ammunition. We have also seen 3 cannons, some huge plane bombs and also a small Italian tank... but, hey I'm getting OT...

BTW, it is very nice to have at least some historical information about this pistol and this thanks to all of you.

Bye!

pipeman45 · 11-20-2006, 12:13 PM

It may be a long shot but my Dad was in Italy during WWII. He often told me about all the guns and ammo that his air group blew up or crushed. Also how they use to fish with explosives.I wonder if he had anything to do with this? I hope not. He said that they found warehouses full of weapons,and if they reported it that they would have to guard it until Headquarters got around to sending trucks to haul it away. SO they would destroy it themselves and say nothing.

Edward Tinker · 11-20-2006, 12:19 PM

Jack, from my experience and I bet yours, I have seen guns crushed this way the last 30-40 years, by law enforcement. I know we'd all like to believe it was from the war, (and obviously the gun is), but my feeling is the damage was done on purpose, after the war...

Ed

Nick_70 · 11-20-2006, 12:21 PM

Morgan,

No, nothing of this kind. But I will pay more attention to these kind of "items", in the future... might get one in a better shape!

For now, I have some like 50mm ammunition from WWII and some rifles ammunition from WWI...

Nick_70 · 11-20-2006, 01:01 PM

Pipeman,

I'm also aware of these stories. There were places full of weapons and at the end of the war, there was a lot of "withdraft" of these, so the people in charge decided to stop this... and near the lakes the best, easy and inexpensive way was to trow everything in the water (considering that ours lakes, being from glacial eras, are pretty deep right from the shore... deepest is almost -400m, but belive me you can drop to -100m right if you jump in the water...).
That is why we can found stuff in really good conditions, being under the mud, in fresh water and (maybe) not too dangerous becasue inerted from the warehouse.

But, sometimes also stuff that was founded on the fields, like plane bombs, mortar projectiles, mine and other ammunitions, not inerted and trowed also in the water...
So, becasue of that is not very healty to play with this things, even if underwater...

Ciao!

Nick_70 · 11-20-2006, 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by John Sabato
perhaps one of you could look up 3233u and get a closer fix on when this gun was made...[/B]

Where I can take a look at this list???

Ron Smith · 11-20-2006, 02:59 PM

According to Still's Third Reich Lugers. The 2nd Variation 1937 S/42 was produced in the 1500 t- 400 b serial range. A 1937 would also have the large S / 42 toggle mark, as on Nick's find.

Ron

11-20-2006, 07:14 AM	#1
Nick_70 User Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Milan, Italy Posts: 20 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	[Italy] Found a Luger on a lake bottom. Hi all, I'm an Italian diver and found this pistol underwater, on one of the Italian's lakes bottom. I would really appreciate your help in finding out some of the history of this gun, if it's possible. But, not for collection or shooting reason, because unfortunately the gun is a "wreck", means that it was rendered unusable by torning and benting it badly. The Barrel is missing with a part of the chaber/frame that was torn out. The handle-grip (?) is badly bented and the wood grips are gone. Also the Barrel-Receiver group is badly smashed with the frame, impossible to dissasemble it. Reading some of the thread of this serious and knoledgeable Forum I was able to locate some ID marks on the Gun, but I'm attaching one pic that I hope would say more then my bad English (I have more, if needed). The Toggle is marked as "S/42" while most of the other parts are marked as "33". The Trigger is marked "35". There is also a mark on the handle-grip(?) that say "0(?).M9.15." What do you think? Tks in advance for any help on this! Bye, Nick Attached Images

11-20-2006, 08:20 AM	#2
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Benvenuto Nick Welcome to the Lugerforum... Your English is quite good. Much better than my rusty Italian... The Luger that you have found appears to be the result of a collision with an artillery or mortar explosion. Despite the physical damage, the condition of the metal seem to be very good for being under water for a very long time. Without a complete serial number, the history we can tell you about this Luger is limited. If there is a 4-digit serial number on the front of the frame above the trigger guard, then we can tell you a bit more about this gun. Can you please show a photo of this area in sharp focus? With the complete serial number we can probably tell you exactly what year it was manufactured. From what I see in the photo, and from what you have told me, this gun was a police Luger because there is evidence that it had the sear safety, and magazine safety typical of that model. S/42 on the toggle indicates that this pistol was manufactured by Mauser, approximately sometime from 1936 to 1939. If the trigger, magazine release and safety lever appear to have been blue like the rest of the pistol, then the gun was made after the change from straw parts sometime in 1937, if the parts appear to have been "strawed" or yellow in color, then the pistol was made before the middle of 1937. The stamped numbers on the grip are a unit number, which unfortunately, I do not have a reference to tell you which unit, but it would most likely be a German police unit. I think your Luger would look good mounted on a wood plaque as a wall decoration. A very unique war souvenier... I hope this information has been helpful. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

11-20-2006, 08:43 AM	#3
Nick_70 User Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Milan, Italy Posts: 20 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hi John, thanks a lot for the quick answer (and for the pity showed about my English...)! There is actually something prited, a "2" or another "3", on above the trigger guard, but is barely readeble, apart the last two digit that are the same as the other on other parts: "33". the trigger, magazine release and safety lever seems to be same as the rest of the pistol, so like you said it should be from around the '37. And, yes even if wrecked, is going to be a very nice souvenir, along with some other stuff like different ammunitions, stuff really easy to find over here... Nick Attached Images

11-20-2006, 08:57 AM	#4
Nick_70 User Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Milan, Italy Posts: 20 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Some other detail... Attached Images

11-20-2006, 09:01 AM	#5
Nick_70 User Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Milan, Italy Posts: 20 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	... Attached Thumbnails

11-20-2006, 09:05 AM	#6
Nick_70 User Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Milan, Italy Posts: 20 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I know is too bad to watch... (I myself would rather have found it in his original shape!!! ) ... Attached Thumbnails

11-20-2006, 09:07 AM	#7
Nick_70 User Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Milan, Italy Posts: 20 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	and last... Attached Images

11-20-2006, 09:14 AM	#8
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,045 Thanks: 1,034 Thanked 3,938 Times in 1,196 Posts	Hi, A nice find. Indeed, it's serial number is 233 (with a letter which is illegible). The pistol also has been furbished as a police pistol, the sear safety and the magazine safety are present. Furthermore, the magazine safety is intact (it was removed or partially removed after a certain date on most police guns). S/42 identifies the toggle as a Mauser toggle, around 1934 - 1935, the frame (with identification) is most probably an earlier DWM made frame. DWM frames were used in early Mauser production. The magazine is an extruded type, made by Haenel. A police luger expert could fill you in on some of the details. ps. You may want to check if the gun still has rounds in the magazine. These too can help you to identify the pistol's history. Could it be that this pistol was destroyed using some sort of hydraulic press and dumped shortly after the war as part of a disarming scheme?

11-20-2006, 10:09 AM	#9
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	GvV, I agree with your analysis. The suffix letter on the frame appears to me to be a "g or a y", but either letter is too late for a 1934 or 35, so perhaps a 1936, if a "G" block. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

11-20-2006, 10:13 AM	#10
Steinar User Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 1,538 Thanks: 18 Thanked 36 Times in 21 Posts	Very interesting find Nick! ..did you find some other items also? Have anyone seen metal twisted this way after an heavy explosion? __________________ Previously known as Morgan Kane

11-20-2006, 10:25 AM	#11
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Gerben V., Lugerdoc, and Nick, having seen other views of this Luger, I now agree with Gerben that this Luger was intentionally destroyed, probably using hydraulic equipment as he suggests... the forces necessary to squeeze the toggle as shown were very strong... it may have been some type of chopping machine. The serial number, I believe is 3233, as a close examination of the front of the frame shows a profile for a three, very similar to the last two digits, before the "2" The suffix is likely a "u'... I don't think it is a "y" because the top of the mark does not look like the "y" suffix marks I have seen, but it does look like the "u"... perhaps one of you could look up 3233u and get a closer fix on when this gun was made... Since the magazine was still in the pistol, I also believe that there may be ammunition still there as well. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

11-20-2006, 10:48 AM	#12
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,915 Thanks: 1,989 Thanked 4,506 Times in 2,080 Posts	okay, it has a unit marking on the grip, so this brings up some intersting thoughts... Sear safeties were put on AFTER 1932, but magazine safeties were taken off after 1935... The marking S/42 was on slightly later guns as said above... Unit markings were no longer allowed after a certain point. I wonder if this is a put together gun, AFTER WW2 and was disposed of by someone... Ed

11-20-2006, 11:16 AM	#13
Jack Lawman User Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Near NYC Posts: 428 Thanks: 30 Thanked 64 Times in 37 Posts	It looks to me as if this pistol was crushed hydraulically along with other pistols or equipment. The forces exerted on that luger came from different directions. This would suggest multiple passes through the press (I doubt that), or more likely it was crushed in a pile. I'd be surprised if that lake bottom wasn't littered with the remains of equipment (at least at one time). Jack __________________ Why do you guys hate black circles so much?

11-20-2006, 12:00 PM	#14
Nick_70 User Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Milan, Italy Posts: 20 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hey guys! I knew this one would have fire up some interest in finding a bit of his story... Well... Gerben, John, there's no ammunition in there, as far as I can see. And, yes, the bottom of our lakes are, obiouvsly, littered with thousand of different pieces of any kind. From big cannons to small machine-gun and rifles ammunition. We have also seen 3 cannons, some huge plane bombs and also a small Italian tank... but, hey I'm getting OT... BTW, it is very nice to have at least some historical information about this pistol and this thanks to all of you. Bye!

11-20-2006, 12:13 PM	#15
pipeman45 User Join Date: May 2004 Location: Kentucky Posts: 539 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	It may be a long shot but my Dad was in Italy during WWII. He often told me about all the guns and ammo that his air group blew up or crushed. Also how they use to fish with explosives.I wonder if he had anything to do with this? I hope not. He said that they found warehouses full of weapons,and if they reported it that they would have to guard it until Headquarters got around to sending trucks to haul it away. SO they would destroy it themselves and say nothing. __________________ Dave

11-20-2006, 12:19 PM	#16
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,915 Thanks: 1,989 Thanked 4,506 Times in 2,080 Posts	Jack, from my experience and I bet yours, I have seen guns crushed this way the last 30-40 years, by law enforcement. I know we'd all like to believe it was from the war, (and obviously the gun is), but my feeling is the damage was done on purpose, after the war... Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

11-20-2006, 12:21 PM	#17
Nick_70 User Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Milan, Italy Posts: 20 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Morgan, No, nothing of this kind. But I will pay more attention to these kind of "items", in the future... might get one in a better shape! For now, I have some like 50mm ammunition from WWII and some rifles ammunition from WWI...

11-20-2006, 01:01 PM	#18
Nick_70 User Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Milan, Italy Posts: 20 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Pipeman, I'm also aware of these stories. There were places full of weapons and at the end of the war, there was a lot of "withdraft" of these, so the people in charge decided to stop this... and near the lakes the best, easy and inexpensive way was to trow everything in the water (considering that ours lakes, being from glacial eras, are pretty deep right from the shore... deepest is almost -400m, but belive me you can drop to -100m right if you jump in the water...). That is why we can found stuff in really good conditions, being under the mud, in fresh water and (maybe) not too dangerous becasue inerted from the warehouse. But, sometimes also stuff that was founded on the fields, like plane bombs, mortar projectiles, mine and other ammunitions, not inerted and trowed also in the water... So, becasue of that is not very healty to play with this things, even if underwater... Ciao!

11-20-2006, 02:59 PM	#20
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	According to Still's Third Reich Lugers. The 2nd Variation 1937 S/42 was produced in the 1500 t- 400 b serial range. A 1937 would also have the large S / 42 toggle mark, as on Nick's find. Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...