LugerForum Discussion Forums my profile | register | faq | search
upload photo | donate | calendar

Go Back   LugerForum Discussion Forums > Luger Discussion Forums > Navy Lugers

Reply
Thread Tools Display Modes
Unread 11-05-2020, 04:30 PM   #1
gill120
User
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 95
Thanks: 1
Thanked 18 Times in 11 Posts
Default 1906 Comm. Navy

I have a 1906 Comm. Navy luger w/6 inch barrel. When after disassembling the pistol I noticed two small crowns on the rear of the barrel at the breach. They look like naval crowns any further info would be appreciated regards these marks/proofs. The pistol is serialed in the 51xxx range, can anyone tell me when it was made ? Regards Dave
gill120 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 11-05-2020, 05:12 PM   #2
Norme
Always A
Lifetime Forum
Patron
 
Norme's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Colorado
Posts: 2,414
Thanks: 223
Thanked 2,590 Times in 930 Posts
Default

Are you sure it's not one C/M (Crown over M) and not 2 small crowns? Photos would help.
Norm
Norme is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 11-06-2020, 07:29 PM   #3
gill120
User
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 95
Thanks: 1
Thanked 18 Times in 11 Posts
Default 06 comm. navy

i believe they are small crowns, but I had never noticed them before. Why would they be placed in such an obscure place?
gill120 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 11-08-2020, 10:23 AM   #4
DonVoigt
User
 
DonVoigt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: near Charlotte NC
Posts: 4,674
Thanks: 1,435
Thanked 4,341 Times in 2,036 Posts
Default

Your questions cannot be answered without clear pictures!
__________________
03man(Don Voigt); Luger student and collector.
Looking for DWM side plate: 69 ; Dreyse 1907 pistol K.S. Gendarmerie
DonVoigt is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 11-08-2020, 01:29 PM   #5
gill120
User
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 95
Thanks: 1
Thanked 18 Times in 11 Posts
Default 06 Comm. Navy Proofs

Norm& Don , it was all I could do after cleaning my glasses and setting the receiver into the sun light to see , the proofs are crown M but real small on either side of the breach. ( 3-9 position) I don't think I can get one of my cameras to take proper pic of the proofs. You will have to take my word at this time. Any idea when the pistol was made?
gill120 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 11-08-2020, 03:33 PM   #6
lugerholsterrepair
Moderator
Lifetime Forum
Patron
 
lugerholsterrepair's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Arizona/Colorado
Posts: 7,756
Thanks: 4,822
Thanked 3,087 Times in 1,423 Posts
Default

Fakes exist. Without a photo you and the rest of us are guessing.
__________________
Jerry Burney
11491 S. Guadalupe Drive

Yuma AZ 85367-6182


lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net

928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round
719 207-3331 (cell)


"For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."
lugerholsterrepair is online now   Reply With Quote
The following 3 members says Thank You to lugerholsterrepair for your post:
Unread 11-09-2020, 02:26 PM   #7
gill120
User
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 95
Thanks: 1
Thanked 18 Times in 11 Posts
Default 1906 comm. navy

I tried a couple of pictures. here goes. You can see the Crown/M on either side of the breach in pics #2 and #4.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	l906 comm. navy 001.JPG
Views:	60
Size:	123.9 KB
ID:	81205  

Click image for larger version

Name:	l906 comm. navy 002.JPG
Views:	75
Size:	127.5 KB
ID:	81206  

Click image for larger version

Name:	l906 comm. navy 003.JPG
Views:	64
Size:	121.5 KB
ID:	81207  

Click image for larger version

Name:	l906 comm. navy 004.JPG
Views:	76
Size:	126.8 KB
ID:	81208  

gill120 is offline   Reply With Quote
The following member says Thank You to gill120 for your post:
Unread 11-09-2020, 04:23 PM   #8
Mac Cat
Lifer
Lifetime Forum
Patron
 
Mac Cat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Austin, Texas
Posts: 666
Thanks: 1,994
Thanked 538 Times in 291 Posts
Default

That's a pretty hard place to examine closely! I just tried on my own.

I can't make out anything from these photos.
I wondered if you could get a small dental mirror.

(You can also inexpensive lenses that snap over your cell phone camera.)
Mac Cat is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 11-09-2020, 04:37 PM   #9
Norme
Always A
Lifetime Forum
Patron
 
Norme's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Colorado
Posts: 2,414
Thanks: 223
Thanked 2,590 Times in 930 Posts
Default

Hi David,
Thanks for posting those photos, I think I may be able to shed a little light. Mysterious and hitherto unnoticed small C/M inspection marks were noted in several hidden (internal) locations on 1906 Navies in the 8000 to 9200a range. These would have been assembled in late 1907/early 1908. It's possible that your 1906 Commercial was assembled at about that time. These marks have been recorded in several different internal locations and it is thought that they mark the completion of some minor change in machining procedure. The marks on your gun are the first I have noted in that particular location. I enclose photos of a couple of those hidden marks.
Norm
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	DSC_0135.jpg
Views:	70
Size:	123.0 KB
ID:	81209  

Click image for larger version

Name:	DSC_0148.jpg
Views:	68
Size:	75.9 KB
ID:	81210  

Norme is offline   Reply With Quote
The following 4 members says Thank You to Norme for your post:
Unread 11-09-2020, 04:43 PM   #10
lugerholsterrepair
Moderator
Lifetime Forum
Patron
 
lugerholsterrepair's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Arizona/Colorado
Posts: 7,756
Thanks: 4,822
Thanked 3,087 Times in 1,423 Posts
Default

If these are where I think you say they are, I can see no reason for them. The Crown M is an Imperial Navy acceptance mark. Not really meant to be hidden like this? But one never says never when it comes to Luger's.

The real reason to see these markings clearly is to determine their probable authenticity. Crown M Imperial Navy acceptance marks are often faked. But if I were wanting to fake some I would make them larger and put them where the average buyer would see them easily. Not on the breech face X2? Likely some of the Crown M Imperial Navy acceptance mark experts can tell us something about the breech face placement? Since we will likely never see the marks with any clarity.
__________________
Jerry Burney
11491 S. Guadalupe Drive

Yuma AZ 85367-6182


lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net

928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round
719 207-3331 (cell)


"For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."
lugerholsterrepair is online now   Reply With Quote
The following 2 members says Thank You to lugerholsterrepair for your post:
Unread 11-10-2020, 10:29 AM   #11
DonVoigt
User
 
DonVoigt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: near Charlotte NC
Posts: 4,674
Thanks: 1,435
Thanked 4,341 Times in 2,036 Posts
Default

I'm not sure if I see the mark, are they actually on the rear of the barrel?
I think I see the one at 3 o'clock; but no detail.

Would have had to be stamped before the barrel was installed, IMO.

I've never seen a mark there- but then I have not looked specifically either!

I cropped your picture, I can just begin to see the Crown.
Attached Images
 
__________________
03man(Don Voigt); Luger student and collector.
Looking for DWM side plate: 69 ; Dreyse 1907 pistol K.S. Gendarmerie
DonVoigt is offline   Reply With Quote
The following 3 members says Thank You to DonVoigt for your post:
Unread 11-10-2020, 11:19 AM   #12
gill120
User
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 95
Thanks: 1
Thanked 18 Times in 11 Posts
Default

The question still stands, why are these tiny Crown M s placed on the breech face. Were they using surplus military barrels? Have any other Comm. Navy s been found with these proofs? I would not have noticed them had a not been using a bright light at the breech . The question of year when it was manufactured has been established somewhat. Thanks you for your input, all.
gill120 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 11-10-2020, 11:50 AM   #13
Norme
Always A
Lifetime Forum
Patron
 
Norme's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Colorado
Posts: 2,414
Thanks: 223
Thanked 2,590 Times in 930 Posts
Default

Hi David,
My guess is that the barrel was rejected by Naval inspectors for some reasons unknown, and then diverted to the Commercial production line rather than scrapping it. Years later Kreighoff, another privately owned company, did much the same.
Norm
Norme is offline   Reply With Quote
The following 4 members says Thank You to Norme for your post:
Unread 11-11-2020, 10:55 AM   #14
gill120
User
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 95
Thanks: 1
Thanked 18 Times in 11 Posts
Default

Have those proofs been found on any of the military 1906 pistol. They sure arent on my 1917 navy barrel.
gill120 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 11-11-2020, 11:31 AM   #15
Ron Wood
Moderator
2010 LugerForum
Patron
 
Ron Wood's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso
Posts: 6,985
Thanks: 1,059
Thanked 5,082 Times in 1,673 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by gill120 View Post
Have those proofs been found on any of the military 1906 pistol. They sure arent on my 1917 navy barrel.
If Norm's premise is accurate you won't find the "proofs" (inspector's marks) on any military pistol since the marked barrels were probably rejects.
Ron
__________________
If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction
Ron Wood is offline   Reply With Quote
The following member says Thank You to Ron Wood for your post:
Unread 11-11-2020, 11:46 AM   #16
Norme
Always A
Lifetime Forum
Patron
 
Norme's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Colorado
Posts: 2,414
Thanks: 223
Thanked 2,590 Times in 930 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by gill120 View Post
Have those proofs been found on any of the military 1906 pistol. They sure arent on my 1917 navy barrel.
Hi David,
Just to clarify, the Crown/M stamp is an inspection mark, the Crown without an M is a proof mark.
Norm
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	DSC_6211.jpg
Views:	55
Size:	103.2 KB
ID:	81238  

Norme is offline   Reply With Quote
The following member says Thank You to Norme for your post:
Unread 11-11-2020, 03:01 PM   #17
Norme
Always A
Lifetime Forum
Patron
 
Norme's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Colorado
Posts: 2,414
Thanks: 223
Thanked 2,590 Times in 930 Posts
Default

Hi David,
It's too bad that we can't have clear photos to work with so you will have to be our eyes. Two questions:
1/ Is there a Naval inspection mark (C/M) beneath the barrel and positioned just above the serial number?
2/ Is there a Naval proof mark (Crown) on the left side of the barrel near the breech?
If the answer to both questions is "No", then the barrel failed inspection and was rejected before it was ever attached to a Navy Luger.
If the answer to question #1 is "Yes" and #2 is "No", then the barrel was attached to a Navy Luger which failed proof but the barrel was deemed acceptable for Commercial use.
If the answer to both questions is "Yes" then I give up!
Norm
Norme is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 11-12-2020, 03:11 PM   #18
gill120
User
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 95
Thanks: 1
Thanked 18 Times in 11 Posts
Default

There does not have any crown M proof on the barrel outside or the receiver. The serial #,the barrel gauge , and B U G proofs are on the barrel one above the other. No other C/M proofs are on the pistol , except where I noted them being. On the barrel shank at the breech end . Regards Dave
gill120 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 11-12-2020, 04:19 PM   #19
Norme
Always A
Lifetime Forum
Patron
 
Norme's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Colorado
Posts: 2,414
Thanks: 223
Thanked 2,590 Times in 930 Posts
Default

Thank you David. It seems likely now that the barrel was rejected by Naval inspectors at the barrel shop, possibly because the chamber was out of spec, too long maybe? If it was deemed as safe to shoot it could well have been relegated to Commercial production. After all, business is business.
Norm
Norme is offline   Reply With Quote
The following member says Thank You to Norme for your post:
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:46 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 1998 - 2023, Lugerforum.com