Found this 9mm Luger ammo vs 9mm

[Jasta2]

Long article. Wonder what the members think of their conclusions? MMM?? Does not highlight, but does still link.
http://thebigdeer.com/what-is-the-di...mm-luger-ammo/

[Jasta2]

In my Navy shooter I have fired older 9mm Luger ammo, and todays 9mm (no +p) and found no difference in function or accuracy. I must be out of touch. Used the term 9mm Luger, and just 9mm, but never 9mm NATO. Of course hear the term 308 NATO used all the time.

[DonVoigt]

Not all "9mm nato" ammo is loaded to the same velocity or pressure; neither is commercial 9mm "luger".
There are lots of threads here and on the other forum about the possible differences.

You are not out of touch, that article is somewhat misleading - and never trust a guy that says the
specifications "implies"- something; that means "he doesn't know for sure and made no attempt to check it". JMHO

[mrerick]

An article full of hot air.

SAAMI publishes modern specifications for 9mm by 19mm Luger ammunition. Either a modern manufacturer follows these specifications and enters the market responsibly or they don't.

Gun manufacturers design firearms to handle SAAMI specification cartridges, then test them to ensure safe operation.

Guns developed prior to the SAAMI specifications also complied with diverse standards that differed from the SAAMI standards. Wartime Lugers did not comply with SAAMI standards because those standards didn't exist at the time. But this article is not about wartime Luger pistols.

Cartridges go by a variety of marketing names. The original name of the 9mm x 19mm cartridge was the "9mm Parabellum". The article author doesn't even mention that name in his overview.

ALL 9mm Luger ammunition is tapered. It's in the specification.



It tapers from the 9.96mm diameter base to the 9.65mm mouth, which is where the cartridge headspaces.

Nato standard "STANAG 4090" is a 1982 standard issued separately by NATO for their service cartridge. This specification is for a +P variant of the standard 9mm x 19mm pistol round with the same dimensional specifications as the 9mm Parabellum round.

In the United States, the cartridge is also know by a US Military specification: 9mm NATO 124 MC M882 Specs:MIL-C-7050

It is focused on interchangeability and the NATO process is discussed here:

https://ndiastorage.blob.core.usgovc...Pellegrino.pdf

A good overview:

https://ammunitionstore.com/content/...Parabellum.pdf

[Jasta2]

Thank you. It's a great history of the 9mm Luger and it's variants.

[Kyrie]

Originally Posted by mrerick

--- snip ---
Nato standard "STANAG 4090" is a 1982 standard issued separately by NATO for their service cartridge. This specification is for a +P variant of the standard 9mm x 19mm pistol round with the same dimensional specifications as the 9mm Parabellum round.
--- snip ---

Respectfully, and with no offense intended, Annex C to STANAG 4090, Edition 2, in the section entitled, in part, "... NATO 9mm AMMUNITION" specifies the mean chamber pressure, transducer, "shall not exceed 230 MPa".

A quick conversion of 230 MPa to PSI yields 33,358.7 PSI. SAAMI maximum average chamber pressure for the (non +P) 9 mm Luger is 35,000 PSI

In short, STANAG 4090 calls for NATO compliant 9x19 ammunition to be loaded to a lower maximum average chamber pressure that that permissible under SAAMI.

[DonVoigt]

And we all should recognize that "transducer pressure" is not the same as "cup" or "copper units of pressure; though both are usually denominated in British units of "PSI" - pounds per square inch.

One can read about the differences in these two methods of chamber pressure of measurement till one's head spins. Look it up if you are interested in learning more.

[Sieger]

Originally Posted by Kyrie

Respectfully, and with no offense intended, Annex C to STANAG 4090, Edition 2, in the section entitled, in part, "... NATO 9mm AMMUNITION" specifies the mean chamber pressure, transducer, "shall not exceed 230 MPa".

A quick conversion of 230 MPa to PSI yields 33,358.7 PSI. SAAMI maximum average chamber pressure for the (non +P) 9 mm Luger is 35,000 PSI

In short, STANAG 4090 calls for NATO compliant 9x19 ammunition to be loaded to a lower maximum average chamber pressure that that permissible under SAAMI.

Hi,

Don is absolutely correct here, just as I was two or three months ago. You are just repeating your misunderstanding over and over with the hope that someone, anyone, will believe it. Don is right in suggesting that you spend more study time on this often misunderstood and somewhat confusing topic.

Also please check the warning label on each box of 9mm NATO ammo, commercially sold by Walmart, that warns that Winchester 9mm NATO is loaded to 10 to 15% higher pressure than commercial 9mm Luger cartridges. Your comments on Winchester's warning label are welcomed.


Respectfully,


Sieger

[Sieger]

Originally Posted by mrerick

An article full of hot air.

SAAMI publishes modern specifications for 9mm by 19mm Luger ammunition. Either a modern manufacturer follows these specifications and enters the market responsibly or they don't.

Gun manufacturers design firearms to handle SAAMI specification cartridges, then test them to ensure safe operation.

Guns developed prior to the SAAMI specifications also complied with diverse standards that differed from the SAAMI standards. Wartime Lugers did not comply with SAAMI standards because those standards didn't exist at the time. But this article is not about wartime Luger pistols.

Cartridges go by a variety of marketing names. The original name of the 9mm x 19mm cartridge was the "9mm Parabellum". The article author doesn't even mention that name in his overview.

ALL 9mm Luger ammunition is tapered. It's in the specification.



It tapers from the 9.96mm diameter base to the 9.65mm mouth, which is where the cartridge headspaces.

Nato standard "STANAG 4090" is a 1982 standard issued separately by NATO for their service cartridge. This specification is for a +P variant of the standard 9mm x 19mm pistol round with the same dimensional specifications as the 9mm Parabellum round.

In the United States, the cartridge is also know by a US Military specification: 9mm NATO 124 MC M882 Specs:MIL-C-7050

It is focused on interchangeability and the NATO process is discussed here:

https://ndiastorage.blob.core.usgovc...Pellegrino.pdf

A good overview:

https://ammunitionstore.com/content/...Parabellum.pdf

mrerick,

Bump for 99.99% of this post!!!

Except, I disagree that a case as tapered as the 9mm Luger head spaces on the mouth of the case.


Respectfully,


Sieger

[Sieger]

Originally Posted by Jasta2

Long article. Wonder what the members think of their conclusions? MMM?? Does not highlight, but does still link.
http://thebigdeer.com/what-is-the-di...mm-luger-ammo/

Jasta2,

By completely ignoring this article, you will save time and total confusion.

Respectfully,


Sieger

[Kyrie]

Originally Posted by Sieger

Hi,

Don is absolutely correct here, just as I was two or three months ago. You are just repeating your misunderstanding over and over with the hope that someone, anyone, will believe it. Don is right in suggesting that you spend more study time on this often misunderstood and somewhat confusing topic.

Also please check the warning label on each box of 9mm NATO ammo, commercially sold by Walmart, that warns that Winchester 9mm NATO is loaded to 10 to 15% higher pressure than commercial 9mm Luger cartridges. Your comments on Winchester's warning label are welcomed.


Respectfully,


Sieger

Actually it's even worse than that.

NATO is primarily a political organization and only secondarily a military alliance. Each NATO signatory is free to ignore any and all NATO agreements (including all the STANAG) if the signatory finds those agreements to be counter to the national security of the signatory.

Net result of that is each NATO signatory fields whatever equipment (including ammunition) that meets the needs of the signatory, STANAG be damned.

Re the marking on boxes of Winchester commercial ammunition, take them all with a grain of salt. Not too long ago Winchester began marketing 7.62x25 Tokarev ammunition in boxes marked "Winchester", cartridges head stamped "Winchester", with performance data for "Winchester 7.62x25 Tokarev" on the Winchester web site.

Nowhere did Winchester acknowledge that ammunition was produced by S&B, in the Czech republic, and marked and packaged by S&B as Winchester ammunition. It was, in reality, Czech S&B 7.62x25 Tokarev ammunition and it's only relation to Winchester was Winchester's check book (pun intended).

In terms of US Army 9x19 ammunition, somewhere I have a US Army ammunition TM that gives data on commercial 9x19 and US Army 9x19. The TM sez US commercial 9x19 has an average max chamber pressure of 36,000 psi, and US Army NATO 9x19 has an average maximum chamber pressure of 27,000 psi. That same TM sez the use of commercial 9x19 ammunition in the M9 pistol is not authorized.

What's the truth here?

The truth is there isn't a single truth. There are a number of truths, and they all conflict in some way.

[DonVoigt]

Seems this may be one of Robert McNamara"s "unknowable knowns".

[Kyrie]

Originally Posted by DonVoigt

Seems this may be one of Robert McNamara"s "unknowable knowns".

Speaking of Bob McNamara, and the unknowable, a story.

Back at the end of the 1950s, beginning of the 1960s, NATO signatories had a tiff concerning a NATO "standard rifle and cartridge." The US wanted a main battle rifle (the M-14) and a full power rifle cartridge (the 7.62x51). The rest of NATO wanted an assault rifle and a to-be-named assault rifle cartridge. The English were hot for a FN SLR chambered for a .276 intermediate power cartridge.

To bring the tiff to an end the English said they would agree to the 7.62x51 cartridge as the NATO standard rifle cartridge, if the US would agree to adopt the FN SLR as the standard NATO rifle.

The US agreed.

Just after England bought a crap load of FN SLR rifles chambered for the 7.62x51 and tooled up to produce 7.62x51 ammunition, Bob McNamara announced the US was adopting the M-16 rifle and the 5.56x45 mm cartridge.

Parts of the English military arms selection group were frostily polite to their US counterparts for several years.

Welcome to NATO :-)

[gunbugs]

Originally Posted by Jasta2

In my Navy shooter I have fired older 9mm Luger ammo, and todays 9mm (no +p) and found no difference in function or accuracy. I must be out of touch. Used the term 9mm Luger, and just 9mm, but never 9mm NATO. Of course hear the term 308 NATO used all the time.

And, of course, there is no "308 NATO". NATO uses metric designations, hence "7.62mm NATO", as marked on USGI ammo cans. "308" is the commercial designation, but not actually the same specs. SAMMI spec is more stringent than NATO. The little cross in circle is the NATO "stamp" or mark.

[Jasta2]

I know of the correct term 7.62 mm NATO being used. but I hear the term 308 NATO used for more often as when I ask what caliber their rifle is, most respond 308 or 308 NATO.

[DonVoigt]

What a can of worms!

[mrerick]

Since the availability of lower cost strain gauge pressure instrumentation, I doubt many manufacturers rely on CUP copper cup crushing technology to measure cartridge pressures.

CUP is not only unrelated to modern PSI measurement technology, it is not linear in nature and doesn't even begin to provide the accuracy of PSI strain gauge measurements. As a mater of standardization, the SAAMI standard specifies both techniques for pressure measurement.

MegaPascal "MPa" is the metric measurement for pressure (Newtons per square meter), calculated using the same strain gauge instrumentation as "PSI" (Pounds per square inch). In a linear conversion one MPa = 145.0377 PSI.

235 MPa max pressure is measured with a different method using piezo strain gauge sensors. The method is not the same technique used by SAAMI, even though the type of sensor is the same. The method differences are discussed here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Small_...#C.I.P._method

The NATO standard of 252 MPa measured in the SAAMI technique would convert to 36500 PSI. This exceeds the SAAMI 35,000 PSI max standard.

As to the 9mm Luger cartridge taper - I was not talking about taper crimp (which is what is used on a cartridge that headspaces on the mouth of the case) but rather the specification for the cartridge. A tapered 9mm Luger cartridge does indeed headspace on the mouth of the cartridge case, which is why you can never roll crimp the cartridge.

In the drawing, you can see that the 9mm Luger case outside diameter tapers from 9.96mm on the rim and 9.93mm at the cartridge body base to only 9.65mm on the cartridge mouth. The cylinder it fits in is also tapered up to the ridge that supports the case mouth. A Luger cartridge chamber is actually shallowly conical in shape, not cylindrical with parallel walls. This aids extraction.

If you look at the drawing of the 9mm Luger chamber on numbered page 27 of the SAAMI specification, you'll see that the ridge where the 9mm cartridge headspaces toward the front of the chamber is identified with a circle "X" symbol.

https://saami.org/wp-content/uploads...12-14-2015.pdf

[DonVoigt]

Ok,
great references.
But the 9mm does headspace on the case mouth, no matter what sammi "x'ed".
Just as soon as one has a minimum case in a maximum chamber, the "x" moves immediately to the case mouth.
The "x" only enters the equation in the imaginary world of engineeers. JMHO

[Kyrie]

Originally Posted by DonVoigt

Ok,
great references.
But the 9mm does headspace on the case mouth, no matter what sammi "x'ed".
Just as soon as one has a minimum case in a maximum chamber, the "x" moves immediately to the case mouth.
The "x" only enters the equation in the imaginary world of engineeers. JMHO

Don is generally correct, if a little off conceptually.

"Headspace" is a characteristic of a firearm's chamber, and not a characteristic of firearm's cartridge.

In a 9 mm Luger barrel that is properly dimensioned with a correctly cut chamber the headspace datum line will be located in the chamber between .754 and .776 inches from the standing breech when the firearm is in battery.

A correctly dimensioned 9 mm Luger cartridge will have a case with an LOA (case head to case mouth) between .754 and .776 inches in length.

The verbal shorthand for those two paragraphs is "A 9 mm Luger cartridge takes its headspace off the case mouth."

[Rick W.]

Over the years, I have often wondered about the SAAMI organization and its functions in the states. Is it a mandate or a suggested set of data?

I knew it was a dimensional reference to try to commonalize ammo and chambers here. Guess some definition for the industry needs to be in order to have interchangeable ammo and firearms(chambers) and to veer off such is a financial/physical risk. The wrath of a shooter that cannot chamber a cartridge in his weapon is a force to be reckoned with huh?; much less one that got hurt and the litigation that follows for years.

The circled X to me has always been just a dimensional identifier, nothing else. The numbers tell the story. Not a M.E. here.

The 754-776 is the go and no go chamber dimensions, take a reading on your gages. Interesting to note that a case can be 744, and in a max chamber of 776, looks like some stress is put directly on the extractor. A lot of once fired brass is shorter than the 754 number, probably for edge in commonality.

Some gunsmiths will chamber a minimum chamber, trying to help out the fit of case with today's brass. Some will give more slack, and comes down to philosophies. Combat weapons need to go no matter what, competition guns that need the accuracy; get the tighter fitment.

I now remember Mark1 talking about other standards for the min/max of the 9mm. The numbers he mentioned pretty much are like what most smiths will chamber a new 9mm barrel to in final breeching. Tighter numbers.

When I first got into reloading, we all rolled crimped. Revolvers got a heavy crimp, autos got a light crimp; since we all knew how things headspaced right? Then the advent of the taper crimp available dies, and now even the collet crimp. So some advancements have been found over the years.

Of course, our friends across the big pond have their own version of a controlling or voluntary mechanism. With all the pictures I have looked at of vintage chambers in 9mm(thanks to all here) I have not learned enough yet about their dimensional data; maybe some day, but for now..........I have to live with today's brass dimensional data.