Capture Paper Errors

Jack Lawman · 06-09-2003, 12:56 PM

This topic came up on another board, but I thought it was interesting enough to share. Someone had posted about spelling errors on Capture Papers, but I am in possession of a real doozie....

Some REMF magically transformed this Austrian pistol into a "Check" revolver. He was thorough enough to document the patent numbers, preserving either his ignorance or indifference for future generations.

Jack

Frank · 06-09-2003, 02:03 PM

Jack, thanks for the great example!!

I have, for quite a while, been shy about the "take home" papers. Even when they are real, especially with Lugers, they often neglect the alpha suffix. The real question is what are these papers worth as additions to the pistol? I keep saying "not much" due to forgers and errors made in the originals. At least that's my 2Ã?Â¢ worth!!

John D. · 06-09-2003, 03:03 PM

Jack!!!!!

I do believe that not only do you own this fine "CHECK" revolver - BUT, the military Clerk also bestowed upon the VET - the actual PATENT - which has now been transferred to YOU!!!...!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> Now - given today's legal environment, you may have a claim against several firearms manufacturers... As well, given the tendency of many courts today - you may actually WIN..!!!

I will probably regret saying this ( <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> ) - BUT, I agree with Frank about the capture papers. If they exist - terrific, but they add little to any "factual, historical" value. To use them as an "enticement" to verify authenticity - hmmmm......

A few years ago - I purchased a Luger BYF RIG directly from the VET who brought it back. When I went to go pick it up, we met for the first time. After doing the paperwork with his local FFL, the VET said "I found something that should probably stay with my Luger...". It was his "take home" papers which included the Luger and a camera. He never mentioned it before or during the sales process.

Anyway - I've seen some who promote the "papers" as being the only source of provenence for a piece. My suggestion is "buyer beware"....

Oh - Jack - good luck in your pursuit of patent infringements..!!!! <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" /> ..!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

Edward Tinker · 06-09-2003, 03:31 PM

Well, I think it adds immensely to the "value" of a gun, but since they are easily faked, wellllll? In my opinion, at a gun show, it adds to the overall value, but not enough to jack the price up and since I don't trust them very much, I think its nice, but not much of a factor in deciding to buy. I do think getting them from a vet adds at least $50 to a piece, but since it is hard to prove, it makes me leery, but I am more inclined to believe something from a private party, than at a show or shop.

Jack Lawman · 06-09-2003, 04:06 PM

I would agree that capture papers add some value, but not much. My papers misrepresent the Steyr so wildly, a buyer would be irresponsible not to raise an eyebrow. This pistol belonged to the Grandfather of a co-worker. His name appears on the papers and he was well known in our community as a WWII vet (now deceased). If I were ever to sell this piece (not likely as I have three young'ns and hope at least one is interested in the hobby as an adult), I believe the papers would add more value in a local sale because of the local connection. The condition of the pistol dictates its monetary value, the papers add a little sentimentality.

That being said, I am still trying to discover (but probably never will) the details of the actual "capture".... was the trophy won by skillfully attacking and wiping out an enemy position or was it thrown into the pot by a desperate/drunken G.I. and taken with aces over eights on VE day!

But if I ever get desperate, I'll just carve the initials "AH" into it and go to a gunshow with a killer story

!

Jack

John D. · 06-09-2003, 04:27 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Jack Lawman:
.....But if I ever get desperate, I'll just carve the initials "AH" into it and go to a gunshow with a killer story

!<hr /></blockquote>LOL..!!!! Nawww - there are already too many of those "AH" variations floating around..?? ( <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> ). You may want to try "EB".... Or just put "SS" runes on the grip panel, along with "HH Presented to AH" engraved with an electric pencil - and make up a date (probably best to keep the date before 1945 or thereabouts)...

Best to you Jack..!

Jim Keenan · 06-09-2003, 10:31 PM

When I worked in a gun shop, a fellow wandered in and asked about fixing his P.38. When I said I would look at it, he pulled it out of his belt. At that time, no one could carry a concealed handgun in this state except a law officer. I didn't really care, but he seemed a shilling short of a pound, so I asked if he was a LEO. He said no, but that he had a "Federal Permit". I had never heard of such a thing, and asked to see it. Sure enough, it was a dog-eared capture paper. He had been carrying that pistol for 20 years, believing that the capture paper was a federal carry permit.

The gun problem was a stuck indicator pin; a drop of oil fixed the gun, and I gave it back without charge or comment. He reloaded it, stuck it in his belt, thanked me, and walked out.

Jim

06-09-2003, 12:56 PM	#1
Jack Lawman User Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Near NYC Posts: 428 Thanks: 30 Thanked 64 Times in 37 Posts	Capture Paper Errors This topic came up on another board, but I thought it was interesting enough to share. Someone had posted about spelling errors on Capture Papers, but I am in possession of a real doozie.... Some REMF magically transformed this Austrian pistol into a "Check" revolver. He was thorough enough to document the patent numbers, preserving either his ignorance or indifference for future generations. Jack __________________ Why do you guys hate black circles so much?

06-09-2003, 03:31 PM	#4
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,909 Thanks: 1,986 Thanked 4,500 Times in 2,076 Posts	Well, I think it adds immensely to the "value" of a gun, but since they are easily faked, wellllll? In my opinion, at a gun show, it adds to the overall value, but not enough to jack the price up and since I don't trust them very much, I think its nice, but not much of a factor in deciding to buy. I do think getting them from a vet adds at least $50 to a piece, but since it is hard to prove, it makes me leery, but I am more inclined to believe something from a private party, than at a show or shop. __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

06-09-2003, 04:06 PM	#5
Jack Lawman User Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Near NYC Posts: 428 Thanks: 30 Thanked 64 Times in 37 Posts	I would agree that capture papers add some value, but not much. My papers misrepresent the Steyr so wildly, a buyer would be irresponsible not to raise an eyebrow. This pistol belonged to the Grandfather of a co-worker. His name appears on the papers and he was well known in our community as a WWII vet (now deceased). If I were ever to sell this piece (not likely as I have three young'ns and hope at least one is interested in the hobby as an adult), I believe the papers would add more value in a local sale because of the local connection. The condition of the pistol dictates its monetary value, the papers add a little sentimentality. That being said, I am still trying to discover (but probably never will) the details of the actual "capture".... was the trophy won by skillfully attacking and wiping out an enemy position or was it thrown into the pot by a desperate/drunken G.I. and taken with aces over eights on VE day! But if I ever get desperate, I'll just carve the initials "AH" into it and go to a gunshow with a killer story ! Jack __________________ Why do you guys hate black circles so much?

06-09-2003, 04:27 PM	#6
John D. Administrator & Site Owner LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A Little NE of Somewhere... Posts: 2,651 Thanks: 471 Thanked 513 Times in 127 Posts	</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Jack Lawman: <strong>.....But if I ever get desperate, I'll just carve the initials "AH" into it and go to a gunshow with a killer story !</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">LOL..!!!! Nawww - there are already too many of those "AH" variations floating around..?? ( <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> ). You may want to try "EB".... Or just put "SS" runes on the grip panel, along with "HH Presented to AH" engraved with an electric pencil - and make up a date (probably best to keep the date before 1945 or thereabouts)... Best to you Jack..!

06-09-2003, 02:03 PM	#2
Frank RIP Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Hot & Dry PHX, AZ Posts: 2,078 Thanks: 24 Thanked 163 Times in 87 Posts	Jack, thanks for the great example!! I have, for quite a while, been shy about the "take home" papers. Even when they are real, especially with Lugers, they often neglect the alpha suffix. The real question is what are these papers worth as additions to the pistol? I keep saying "not much" due to forgers and errors made in the originals. At least that's my 2Ã?Â¢ worth!!

06-09-2003, 03:03 PM	#3
John D. Administrator & Site Owner LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A Little NE of Somewhere... Posts: 2,651 Thanks: 471 Thanked 513 Times in 127 Posts	Jack!!!!! I do believe that not only do you own this fine "CHECK" revolver - BUT, the military Clerk also bestowed upon the VET - the actual PATENT - which has now been transferred to YOU!!!...!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> Now - given today's legal environment, you may have a claim against several firearms manufacturers... As well, given the tendency of many courts today - you may actually WIN..!!! I will probably regret saying this ( <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> ) - BUT, I agree with Frank about the capture papers. If they exist - terrific, but they add little to any "factual, historical" value. To use them as an "enticement" to verify authenticity - hmmmm...... A few years ago - I purchased a Luger BYF RIG directly from the VET who brought it back. When I went to go pick it up, we met for the first time. After doing the paperwork with his local FFL, the VET said "I found something that should probably stay with my Luger...". It was his "take home" papers which included the Luger and a camera. He never mentioned it before or during the sales process. Anyway - I've seen some who promote the "papers" as being the only source of provenence for a piece. My suggestion is "buyer beware".... Oh - Jack - good luck in your pursuit of patent infringements..!!!! <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" /> ..!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

06-09-2003, 10:31 PM	#7
Jim Keenan User Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 184 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	When I worked in a gun shop, a fellow wandered in and asked about fixing his P.38. When I said I would look at it, he pulled it out of his belt. At that time, no one could carry a concealed handgun in this state except a law officer. I didn't really care, but he seemed a shilling short of a pound, so I asked if he was a LEO. He said no, but that he had a "Federal Permit". I had never heard of such a thing, and asked to see it. Sure enough, it was a dog-eared capture paper. He had been carrying that pistol for 20 years, believing that the capture paper was a federal carry permit. The gun problem was a stuck indicator pin; a drop of oil fixed the gun, and I gave it back without charge or comment. He reloaded it, stuck it in his belt, thanked me, and walked out. Jim