Need Help (Identity & Value) WWII Luger - with Pictures (Thanks)

fyvealyve · 02-04-2012, 10:57 AM

I have a German Luger that my grandfather traded in exchange for a carton of smokes (and likely more) with a German at the end of WWII. It is fully functional. As I understand it – no restoration work has been done on it. All serial numbers match, including the 2 magazine clips. Also have the original holster and equipment. As best I can tell, based on the markings, it is Mauser military proof.

I have included several images to this post and would appreciate more knowledgeable insight as to where this was made and also as to value (for insurance purposes).

I would appreciate any assistance.

alanint · 02-04-2012, 11:02 AM

Beautiful rig!!! All the elements look original and untouched. This is a valuable grouping here in the US. Other collectors will give you a value.
I'm guessing you are not in the US?

fyvealyve · 02-04-2012, 11:07 AM

Thanks for the comment. I live in Toronto. The gun and holster have been (more or less) sitting in a drawer for more than 60 years and I am an avid WWII history buff. The gun was willed to me. However, I'm not very knowledgeable about firearms in particular.

fyvealyve · 02-04-2012, 11:44 AM

Would this be what is known as "Black Widow" luger?

mlmahon · 02-04-2012, 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fyvealyve

Would this be what is known as "Black Widow" luger?

Others on this forum are much more knowledgeable, but it sure looks like one to me. Beautiful rig. I'm drooling.

-ML

alanint · 02-04-2012, 02:08 PM

It is a complete, original "Black Widow" Mauser rig. It does not get any better than this for a WW2 Mauser.
In today's market in the $3K+ range.

fyvealyve · 02-04-2012, 04:26 PM

In addition - the markings on the 'take down' tool are an eagle with "66" - so I assume this would represent the same serial markings on the gun and the clips.

alanint · 02-04-2012, 06:47 PM

Just a cool coincidence! The Eagle over 66 is a known waffenampt and just happens to appear to match you gun's serial!

MFC · 02-05-2012, 01:15 AM

Hello Fyve,
Very nice and enviable rig!!! The name "black widow" was made up by a US dealer to enhance sales of the all black Lugers, with black bakelite grips and mag bottoms. Most would not consider yours as a "black widow" with the aluminum bottom mags. Not to worry though... yours with two matched aluminum bottom mags, is worth more than a "bw" rig, which is easy to assemble with unnumbered black bottom mags.

fyvealyve · 02-05-2012, 02:15 PM

Thanks again to all for their help. I would like to have the gun cleaned. I have enough knowledge to disassemble/reassemble the gun. I would appreciate any info from the experts here as to the best method of cleaning and preserving this gun to protect it from rust, etc. without the potential for "detracting" from its value as a collectible gun (i.e. not removing the blue finish). Also, I'd like to clean the magazine, but won't attempt any type of disassembly of either magazine for fear of damaging it. Should I send the magazines to someone more capable for cleaning purposes? If so, any recommendations? Lastly, the holster - what is the best way to "preserve" its leather for storage etc.? Are their people that can professionally clean (i.e. but not restore) the holster? Thanks again guys, you've been great helping this novice out.

tharpo · 02-05-2012, 03:42 PM

A common stamp on the take down tools is Eagle over 63 or 655. Is it possible that your tool has one of those and not #66?
Break Free CLP is a good spray for cleaning your luger.

Tom

fyvealyve · 02-05-2012, 06:32 PM

Thanks Tom. You are correct, on closer inspection the tool is marked with an eagle with "63" not "66" as I thought. Its funny, I suppose, how the mind sometimes sees what it wants (or expects) to see.

Mwland · 02-05-2012, 08:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fyvealyve

Thanks again to all for their help. I would like to have the gun cleaned. I have enough knowledge to disassemble/reassemble the gun. I would appreciate any info from the experts here as to the best method of cleaning and preserving this gun to protect it from rust, etc. without the potential for "detracting" from its value as a collectible gun (i.e. not removing the blue finish). Also, I'd like to clean the magazine, but won't attempt any type of disassembly of either magazine for fear of damaging it. Should I send the magazines to someone more capable for cleaning purposes? If so, any recommendations? Lastly, the holster - what is the best way to "preserve" its leather for storage etc.? Are their people that can professionally clean (i.e. but not restore) the holster? Thanks again guys, you've been great helping this novice out.

U

Great Rig! For your magazines Gerald Tomeck (GT) is the person you want working on them. GT has forgotten more about Luger Magazines then most of us know!

mrerick · 02-05-2012, 09:37 PM

Hi Mike,

Congratulations on inheriting a very fine and collectable Luger rig.

It is very rare to find a rig with one matching magazine, much less two. It also appears to be in very fine original condition.

For that reason, your thoughts on properly approaching caring for it are very well taken.

First, do NOT store your pistol in the leather holster. The holster was tanned with chemicals that will eventually corrode steel and damage the finish.

If you dis-assemble it, take extreme care when removing the left grip. If you lift it off the frame too far, you can break it near the safety lever. There are disassembly instructions on this site.

Do not attempt to disassemble the magazines.

The best approach to cleaning it is to just keep it lightly oiled with a good corrosion preventative oil like Rem Oil, Kroil or another gun oil. You can get this at a gun shop or WalMart.

Be sure to clean the barrel. You can get a 9mm/38 Caliber size cleaning kit with cloth patches and a cotton "mop". After cleaning the barrel interior with a bronze brush, and solvent soaked patches, you dry it and then oil it by putting a few drops of gun oil on the cotton mop and running it through the barrel. Work from the back of the barrel (the chamber end) forward using a long enough rod.

Unless they are very dirty, the magazines probably don't need cleaning. Just spray them with preserving oil, dry them and then spray on a light coating of the oil.

I store my pistols in silicone impregnated socks especially made to repel moisture.

There will normally be a small amount of rust that will show deeply in the finish of a 90 year old pistol. If you have excessive red oxide in places, you can take an oil soaked tuft of "0000" steel or bronze wool and gently rub it away. Do it lightly and you won't damage the bluing.

My personal advice would be to resist the temptation of actually loading it with ammunition and shooting it. If a numbered part should break, your $3,000+ complete matching rig will turn into a $900 mismatched shooter. That and you'll also impact it's history.

Cheers, and congratulations. And thanks to the memory and service of your grandfather.

Marc

02-04-2012, 10:57 AM	#1
fyvealyve User Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 6 Thanks: 6 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Need Help (Identity & Value) WWII Luger - with Pictures (Thanks) I have a German Luger that my grandfather traded in exchange for a carton of smokes (and likely more) with a German at the end of WWII. It is fully functional. As I understand it – no restoration work has been done on it. All serial numbers match, including the 2 magazine clips. Also have the original holster and equipment. As best I can tell, based on the markings, it is Mauser military proof. I have included several images to this post and would appreciate more knowledgeable insight as to where this was made and also as to value (for insurance purposes). I would appreciate any assistance. Attached Thumbnails Last edited by fyvealyve; 02-04-2012 at 12:06 PM.

02-05-2012, 01:15 AM	#9
MFC User Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Louisiana Posts: 1,237 Thanks: 183 Thanked 281 Times in 162 Posts	Hello Fyve, Very nice and enviable rig!!! The name "black widow" was made up by a US dealer to enhance sales of the all black Lugers, with black bakelite grips and mag bottoms. Most would not consider yours as a "black widow" with the aluminum bottom mags. Not to worry though... yours with two matched aluminum bottom mags, is worth more than a "bw" rig, which is easy to assemble with unnumbered black bottom mags. __________________ Mike C.

02-05-2012, 09:37 PM	#14
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,900 Thanks: 1,370 Thanked 3,094 Times in 1,503 Posts	Hi Mike, Congratulations on inheriting a very fine and collectable Luger rig. It is very rare to find a rig with one matching magazine, much less two. It also appears to be in very fine original condition. For that reason, your thoughts on properly approaching caring for it are very well taken. First, do NOT store your pistol in the leather holster. The holster was tanned with chemicals that will eventually corrode steel and damage the finish. If you dis-assemble it, take extreme care when removing the left grip. If you lift it off the frame too far, you can break it near the safety lever. There are disassembly instructions on this site. Do not attempt to disassemble the magazines. The best approach to cleaning it is to just keep it lightly oiled with a good corrosion preventative oil like Rem Oil, Kroil or another gun oil. You can get this at a gun shop or WalMart. Be sure to clean the barrel. You can get a 9mm/38 Caliber size cleaning kit with cloth patches and a cotton "mop". After cleaning the barrel interior with a bronze brush, and solvent soaked patches, you dry it and then oil it by putting a few drops of gun oil on the cotton mop and running it through the barrel. Work from the back of the barrel (the chamber end) forward using a long enough rod. Unless they are very dirty, the magazines probably don't need cleaning. Just spray them with preserving oil, dry them and then spray on a light coating of the oil. I store my pistols in silicone impregnated socks especially made to repel moisture. There will normally be a small amount of rust that will show deeply in the finish of a 90 year old pistol. If you have excessive red oxide in places, you can take an oil soaked tuft of "0000" steel or bronze wool and gently rub it away. Do it lightly and you won't damage the bluing. My personal advice would be to resist the temptation of actually loading it with ammunition and shooting it. If a numbered part should break, your $3,000+ complete matching rig will turn into a $900 mismatched shooter. That and you'll also impact it's history. Cheers, and congratulations. And thanks to the memory and service of your grandfather. Marc __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

02-04-2012, 11:02 AM	#2
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	Beautiful rig!!! All the elements look original and untouched. This is a valuable grouping here in the US. Other collectors will give you a value. I'm guessing you are not in the US?

02-04-2012, 11:07 AM	#3
fyvealyve User Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 6 Thanks: 6 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Thanks for the comment. I live in Toronto. The gun and holster have been (more or less) sitting in a drawer for more than 60 years and I am an avid WWII history buff. The gun was willed to me. However, I'm not very knowledgeable about firearms in particular.

02-04-2012, 11:44 AM	#4
fyvealyve User Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 6 Thanks: 6 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Would this be what is known as "Black Widow" luger?

02-04-2012, 02:08 PM	#6
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	It is a complete, original "Black Widow" Mauser rig. It does not get any better than this for a WW2 Mauser. In today's market in the $3K+ range. Last edited by alanint; 02-04-2012 at 06:46 PM.

02-04-2012, 04:26 PM	#7
fyvealyve User Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 6 Thanks: 6 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	In addition - the markings on the 'take down' tool are an eagle with "66" - so I assume this would represent the same serial markings on the gun and the clips.

02-04-2012, 06:47 PM	#8
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	Just a cool coincidence! The Eagle over 66 is a known waffenampt and just happens to appear to match you gun's serial!

02-05-2012, 02:15 PM	#10
fyvealyve User Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 6 Thanks: 6 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Thanks again to all for their help. I would like to have the gun cleaned. I have enough knowledge to disassemble/reassemble the gun. I would appreciate any info from the experts here as to the best method of cleaning and preserving this gun to protect it from rust, etc. without the potential for "detracting" from its value as a collectible gun (i.e. not removing the blue finish). Also, I'd like to clean the magazine, but won't attempt any type of disassembly of either magazine for fear of damaging it. Should I send the magazines to someone more capable for cleaning purposes? If so, any recommendations? Lastly, the holster - what is the best way to "preserve" its leather for storage etc.? Are their people that can professionally clean (i.e. but not restore) the holster? Thanks again guys, you've been great helping this novice out.

02-05-2012, 03:42 PM	#11
tharpo Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: West Coast, USA Posts: 536 Thanks: 116 Thanked 375 Times in 153 Posts	A common stamp on the take down tools is Eagle over 63 or 655. Is it possible that your tool has one of those and not #66? Break Free CLP is a good spray for cleaning your luger. Tom

02-05-2012, 06:32 PM	#12
fyvealyve User Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 6 Thanks: 6 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Thanks Tom. You are correct, on closer inspection the tool is marked with an eagle with "63" not "66" as I thought. Its funny, I suppose, how the mind sometimes sees what it wants (or expects) to see.