My New 1917 DWM Luger questions

BarrelBaggins · 07-02-2019, 05:07 PM

Hello!
I am new to this forum and was hoping someone could help me with what kind of Luger I have just purchased.

It’s labeled 1917 (no 1920 so I’m assuming this was illegal to own after the whole confiscation happened) and it’s a DWM. I believe the proof marks mean it was a military Luger.

The markings I don’t understand are the ones on the trigger guard. They almost look like an RC with a crown and then under that a letter A with a crown.

I also noticed it has a seat safety installed which was more of a police modification but I am not seeing any police markings. The holster it came with is also a police model holster that was matched to the Luger.

All parts seem to be matching.

The magazines have matching numbers but I know the 1917 Luger came with wood bottoms. Maybe the magazines were updated? I also have the second magazine.

This Luger also came with bring back paperwork from a US soldier that states the Luger (with serial number) and holster.

I’m just trying to figure out the markings and a possible story.

HerrKaiser · 07-02-2019, 05:20 PM

Based on what is seen in the pictures. It is indeed a DWM 1917 military pistol then pressed into police service after WW1, but without a 1920 property stamp. You have what is widely considered to be the best magazine for it-a Schmeisser-Heanel-with a police-style numbering indicating it was the primary magazine for police service of the gun as the serial is matched to it as well. Looks to be reblued or the strawing is almost gone on all parts that are visible (takedown lever and trigger most obviously should be a golden color or more of a bare steel color instead of blued like the rest of the gun as the pictures seem to show, it could also look that way in photos from bad lighting). It should be a fantastic shooter piece if that is the case as the reblue kills collectible value for it.

Welcome to the forum and read the FAQ, accessible at the top of every page. It has tons of good info. It can also show you some of the other picture angles you’ll want to post for better evaluation of it.

DavidJayUden · 07-02-2019, 05:29 PM

Reblued yes, but probably done during police rework, so no huge deal. Formerly an artillery model, re-barreled. A nice gun with it's own group of specialty collectors.
dju

BarrelBaggins · 07-02-2019, 05:44 PM

Thanks for the quick replies guys!
Wouldn’t the pistol have to have the 1920 stamp for it to go into police service? Otherwise that would mean this pistol was never turned in from what I’ve read.

Also does anyone know what the markings (attached) mean?

BarrelBaggins · 07-02-2019, 05:52 PM

Figured I’d show the bring back paperwork also

DonVoigt · 07-02-2019, 06:10 PM

Welcome to the forum.

No, all pistols did not receive the 1920 marking before or after they went to the police.
The marking was only applied for a few months in 1920/21.

The marking on the front of the TG is the "revisions commission stamp" and the normal Erfurt inspection crown/letter.

The TP on the barrel is the mark applied when the barrel was replaced by the Technical Police organization(armorer) and the eagle is the firing proof of the Weimar era.

Check out the FAQ for answers and info, explaining these and other markings.

Nice to have the paper with the pistol number, matching mags, and holster!

It is a "sear" safety.

Also a good idea to include full left and right views of the entire pistol, and the top of the chamber, front of frame.

Your close ups are good, but sometimes there is info hidden in the "forest" - all the ones posted show "trees".

BarrelBaggins · 07-02-2019, 07:26 PM

I will take a picture tomorrow of the full pistol

Edward Tinker · 07-02-2019, 10:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DavidJayUden

Reblued yes, but probably done during police rework, so no huge deal. Formerly an artillery model, re-barreled. A nice gun with it's own group of specialty collectors.
dju

I am afraid I disagree with this - when refurbed, my experience is that they were reblued, just like it was new, so anything you see as reblued that shouldn't be, was done by a NON armory...

Quote:

Originally Posted by BarrelBaggins

Thanks for the quick replies guys!
Wouldn’t the pistol have to have the 1920 stamp for it to go into police service? Otherwise that would mean this pistol was never turned in from what I’ve read.

Also does anyone know what the markings (attached) mean?

Please change how you think of the 1920 - someone told you wrong. It was placed there to show it was gov't property. Private purchase and many tens of thousands of guns were not marked.

The 1920 has nothing to do with police service

Not all police guns were unit marked
Not all police guns received much in the way of marking (the TP shows the barrel was replaced) - perhaps it went back to DWM for refurb and received a 7.65mm then went to the police.
The magazine is a police magazine - it could have been police, or it could have been matched up after the war

Ed
.

ithacaartist · 07-03-2019, 02:10 AM

The barrel and receiver appear to have come from an Artillery Luger. The notch on the top, front of the receiver, and the remnants of the mounting area for the LP.08 rear tangent sight are visible in the pics. My guess is that the original barrel was turned down and shortened, and a new barrel band/sight block applied. If we had some extreme closeups of the barrel band/front sight area of the muzzle, including a shot from the front end so we can see the crown, that might provide a clue.

BarrelBaggins · 07-03-2019, 05:50 AM

More pictures to come later today!

BarrelBaggins · 07-03-2019, 06:18 AM

Does anyone know when Schmeisser magazines started being made? I’m just trying to figure out if this pistol was possibly used during the WW2 era.

DonVoigt · 07-03-2019, 09:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BarrelBaggins

Does anyone know when Schmeisser magazines started being made? I’m just trying to figure out if this pistol was possibly used during the WW2 era.

Before WWII, it is quite likely that this pistol saw service in WWII.

Lugerdoc · 07-03-2019, 10:57 AM

BB, DJU & ET, I agree with Lifer that rather than the old orig LPO8 barrel being removed when it entered police service in the 1920s, the orig barrel was shortened and the tangent sight was removed by the Technical Police (TP marking on right side of barrel) and a sear safety was added. The matching Haenel/Schmeisser mag may a been added at that time or some time later in the 1930s. TH

DavidJayUden · 07-03-2019, 11:47 AM

Tom is no doubt correct. We need some good photos of that barrel, including the front sight band.

BarrelBaggins · 07-03-2019, 06:15 PM

Here are the pictures of the barrel. Hope these work for you guys!

BarrelBaggins · 07-03-2019, 06:20 PM

Here are some more pictures

BarrelBaggins · 07-03-2019, 06:24 PM

And some more. Hope these pictures are better!

HerrKaiser · 07-03-2019, 06:31 PM

A fully matching police rig down to the magazines, took, and holster...but definitely reblued from a non-armory. I’m not sure how other collectors would see this but outside of that reblue, it’s a very nice get.

DonVoigt · 07-03-2019, 08:07 PM

I'm not convinced it is not a refinish from its time when the police sear safety was added.
The sear safety rivet is in the white, which is a pretty good sign that it is NOT a post period reblue.

This may represent a 1932/3 or even later addition of the sear safety, a time when a hot blue of all parts would have been possible.

I agree that the blue ejector and td lever, etc. are an anomaly one does not usually see.

BarrelBaggins · 07-04-2019, 03:43 PM

I’m also curious about those markings on the inside of the grip. Still trying to figure out if the barrel was cutdown also!

07-02-2019, 05:07 PM	#1
BarrelBaggins User Join Date: Jul 2019 Posts: 23 Thanks: 22 Thanked 10 Times in 5 Posts	My New 1917 DWM Luger questions Hello! I am new to this forum and was hoping someone could help me with what kind of Luger I have just purchased. It’s labeled 1917 (no 1920 so I’m assuming this was illegal to own after the whole confiscation happened) and it’s a DWM. I believe the proof marks mean it was a military Luger. The markings I don’t understand are the ones on the trigger guard. They almost look like an RC with a crown and then under that a letter A with a crown. I also noticed it has a seat safety installed which was more of a police modification but I am not seeing any police markings. The holster it came with is also a police model holster that was matched to the Luger. All parts seem to be matching. The magazines have matching numbers but I know the 1917 Luger came with wood bottoms. Maybe the magazines were updated? I also have the second magazine. This Luger also came with bring back paperwork from a US soldier that states the Luger (with serial number) and holster. I’m just trying to figure out the markings and a possible story. Attached Thumbnails

07-02-2019, 05:20 PM	#2
HerrKaiser User Join Date: Feb 2018 Location: South Carolina Posts: 800 Thanks: 750 Thanked 793 Times in 376 Posts	Based on what is seen in the pictures. It is indeed a DWM 1917 military pistol then pressed into police service after WW1, but without a 1920 property stamp. You have what is widely considered to be the best magazine for it-a Schmeisser-Heanel-with a police-style numbering indicating it was the primary magazine for police service of the gun as the serial is matched to it as well. Looks to be reblued or the strawing is almost gone on all parts that are visible (takedown lever and trigger most obviously should be a golden color or more of a bare steel color instead of blued like the rest of the gun as the pictures seem to show, it could also look that way in photos from bad lighting). It should be a fantastic shooter piece if that is the case as the reblue kills collectible value for it. Welcome to the forum and read the FAQ, accessible at the top of every page. It has tons of good info. It can also show you some of the other picture angles you’ll want to post for better evaluation of it. __________________ -QM Looking for Mauser S/42 toggle train #22

07-02-2019, 05:44 PM	#4
BarrelBaggins User Join Date: Jul 2019 Posts: 23 Thanks: 22 Thanked 10 Times in 5 Posts	Thanks for the quick replies guys! Wouldn’t the pistol have to have the 1920 stamp for it to go into police service? Otherwise that would mean this pistol was never turned in from what I’ve read. Also does anyone know what the markings (attached) mean? Attached Thumbnails

07-02-2019, 05:52 PM	#5
BarrelBaggins User Join Date: Jul 2019 Posts: 23 Thanks: 22 Thanked 10 Times in 5 Posts	Figured I’d show the bring back paperwork also Attached Thumbnails

07-02-2019, 06:10 PM	#6
DonVoigt User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: near Charlotte NC Posts: 4,677 Thanks: 1,439 Thanked 4,347 Times in 2,038 Posts	Welcome to the forum. No, all pistols did not receive the 1920 marking before or after they went to the police. The marking was only applied for a few months in 1920/21. The marking on the front of the TG is the "revisions commission stamp" and the normal Erfurt inspection crown/letter. The TP on the barrel is the mark applied when the barrel was replaced by the Technical Police organization(armorer) and the eagle is the firing proof of the Weimar era. Check out the FAQ for answers and info, explaining these and other markings. Nice to have the paper with the pistol number, matching mags, and holster! It is a "sear" safety. Also a good idea to include full left and right views of the entire pistol, and the top of the chamber, front of frame. Your close ups are good, but sometimes there is info hidden in the "forest" - all the ones posted show "trees". __________________ 03man(Don Voigt); Luger student and collector. Looking for DWM side plate: 69 ; Dreyse 1907 pistol K.S. Gendarmerie

07-02-2019, 05:29 PM	#3
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	Reblued yes, but probably done during police rework, so no huge deal. Formerly an artillery model, re-barreled. A nice gun with it's own group of specialty collectors. dju

07-02-2019, 07:26 PM	#7
BarrelBaggins User Join Date: Jul 2019 Posts: 23 Thanks: 22 Thanked 10 Times in 5 Posts	I will take a picture tomorrow of the full pistol

07-03-2019, 02:10 AM	#9
ithacaartist Twice a Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Atop the highest hill in Schuyler County NY Posts: 3,282 Thanks: 7,007 Thanked 2,476 Times in 1,319 Posts	The barrel and receiver appear to have come from an Artillery Luger. The notch on the top, front of the receiver, and the remnants of the mounting area for the LP.08 rear tangent sight are visible in the pics. My guess is that the original barrel was turned down and shortened, and a new barrel band/sight block applied. If we had some extreme closeups of the barrel band/front sight area of the muzzle, including a shot from the front end so we can see the crown, that might provide a clue. __________________ "... Liberty is the seed and soil, the air and light, the dew and rain of progress, love and joy."-- Robert Greene Ingersoll 1894

07-03-2019, 05:50 AM	#10
BarrelBaggins User Join Date: Jul 2019 Posts: 23 Thanks: 22 Thanked 10 Times in 5 Posts	More pictures to come later today!

07-03-2019, 06:18 AM	#11
BarrelBaggins User Join Date: Jul 2019 Posts: 23 Thanks: 22 Thanked 10 Times in 5 Posts	Does anyone know when Schmeisser magazines started being made? I’m just trying to figure out if this pistol was possibly used during the WW2 era.

07-03-2019, 10:57 AM	#13
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	BB, DJU & ET, I agree with Lifer that rather than the old orig LPO8 barrel being removed when it entered police service in the 1920s, the orig barrel was shortened and the tangent sight was removed by the Technical Police (TP marking on right side of barrel) and a sear safety was added. The matching Haenel/Schmeisser mag may a been added at that time or some time later in the 1930s. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

07-03-2019, 11:47 AM	#14
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	Tom is no doubt correct. We need some good photos of that barrel, including the front sight band.

07-03-2019, 06:15 PM	#15
BarrelBaggins User Join Date: Jul 2019 Posts: 23 Thanks: 22 Thanked 10 Times in 5 Posts	Here are the pictures of the barrel. Hope these work for you guys! Attached Thumbnails

07-03-2019, 06:20 PM	#16
BarrelBaggins User Join Date: Jul 2019 Posts: 23 Thanks: 22 Thanked 10 Times in 5 Posts	Here are some more pictures Attached Thumbnails

07-03-2019, 06:24 PM	#17
BarrelBaggins User Join Date: Jul 2019 Posts: 23 Thanks: 22 Thanked 10 Times in 5 Posts	And some more. Hope these pictures are better! Attached Thumbnails

07-03-2019, 06:31 PM	#18
HerrKaiser User Join Date: Feb 2018 Location: South Carolina Posts: 800 Thanks: 750 Thanked 793 Times in 376 Posts	A fully matching police rig down to the magazines, took, and holster...but definitely reblued from a non-armory. I’m not sure how other collectors would see this but outside of that reblue, it’s a very nice get. __________________ -QM Looking for Mauser S/42 toggle train #22

07-03-2019, 08:07 PM	#19
DonVoigt User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: near Charlotte NC Posts: 4,677 Thanks: 1,439 Thanked 4,347 Times in 2,038 Posts	I'm not convinced it is not a refinish from its time when the police sear safety was added. The sear safety rivet is in the white, which is a pretty good sign that it is NOT a post period reblue. This may represent a 1932/3 or even later addition of the sear safety, a time when a hot blue of all parts would have been possible. I agree that the blue ejector and td lever, etc. are an anomaly one does not usually see. __________________ 03man(Don Voigt); Luger student and collector. Looking for DWM side plate: 69 ; Dreyse 1907 pistol K.S. Gendarmerie

07-04-2019, 03:43 PM	#20
BarrelBaggins User Join Date: Jul 2019 Posts: 23 Thanks: 22 Thanked 10 Times in 5 Posts	I’m also curious about those markings on the inside of the grip. Still trying to figure out if the barrel was cutdown also!