1918 Erfurt, Odd Grip Panel Marking

[lawrence]

Looked at what the dealer said was 1918 Erfurt. Left grip panel had a half dollar sized stamp burned into it. The stamp was a large D R over a slightly elongated circle that had wings which protruded from the elongated circle. This was all enclosed in a large (half dollar sized) burned circle. Can anyone tell me what this stamp means?

[George Anderson]

On Jan Still's forum you stated that the large circle was topped with the letters "RC". Which is it?

[lawrence]

So sorry. It was "D' "R'. I will edit the other post

[Lyn Islaub]

George,
I have a 1914 DWM with the same marking on the left grip. Both grips are numbered to the gun, as is the magazine, but the side plate was renumbered upside down (?). There is an armorers "X" under the sideplate just behind the trigger and the barrel is marked "BO30". I've always been curious about the grip marking and am surprised to hear that there is another one like it.
Lyn

[George Anderson]

Lyn, I think it would be most informative to have photos posted here. The marking has been I.D'd on Mr Still's forum as being that of the Deutsche Reichseisenbahn. Basically it is railway security during the early months/years of the Weimar Republic.

Please post some photos if you can.

[Lyn Islaub]

George,
I'll forward some scans to brother Tinker and, beg him to upload them for me. I'll also send copies to you.
Lyn

[Edward Tinker]

sorry Lyn, I got confused and posted them on Jan's forum. Your pictures are above.

Ed

[Schupo]

Lyn,

Your grip brand is that for the Deutsche Reichsbahn. It would be interesting to know the markings on the rest of the pistol to determine if it is a period rework and re-issue. The sideplate does appear to be an armorer replacement. As I said on Jan's site, the Deutschen Reichsbahn-Gesellschaft was formed in 1924 so your pistol would have been reworked and re-issued after that date to the railway police. It is a very good sign that the grips are numbered to your pistol. It is also interesting that the DR insignia is branded upside down on the grip. I wonder if the one that Lawrence saw was branded in the same orientation?

George

[Ron Wood]

I saw a DR gripped 1908 pattern Luger (undated) a couple of years ago, can't remember which show. It was branded right side up and nearer the top of the grip. Cost way too much for me, so I lost interest quickly.

[Herb]

Interesting to say the least. Other than the upside down 37 on the side plate there seems to be another stamping there too, to the rear of the number, is that a stamping or pitting, or???

[lawrence]

The one I saw was much like Ron described, right side up and
nearer the center. It was centered more toward the back strap so
that the circle around the DR and winged wheel was not complete
because of the bevel of the grip. It was on the left side grip.

[Schupo]

Lawrence,

I suspect the one you saw was the normal way of branding them. The EWB (Einwohnerwer Bayern) brand was normally placed lenghtwise on one side of the luger grip.

Lyn,

I suspect the brand and the replaced sideplate were marked at the same time since they are both upside down. The pistol was very likely in a jig or vice and both markings were applied with the same orientation. Any grip strap markings on your pistol?

George

[Lyn Islaub]

All,
The pistol is not unit marked and the other marking on the sideplate is the original serial number "89". It is depressed a bit and I suspect that they overstruck it when the sideplate was replaced. With the exception of the "X" under the sideplate and what I've already noted, all other proofs and markings seem standard. My curiosity is aroused now concerning the rarity of a luger marked this way. Any thoughts from any of you on that?
Thx, Lyn

[Schupo]

Lyn,

Your pistol looks like a Reichsbahn P.08 to me from what I can see in the photographs. Various railway security services such as the Bahnschutz and Bahnpolizei were issued these weapons that were property marked to the Reichsbahn.

Railway weapons are scarce because these security agencies were small. The rifles are also scarce, just like Einwohnerwehr (Citizen's Militia) marked rifles and pistols.

Here is an example of a Einwohnerwehr Bayern marked Mauser rifle that was later issued to what seems to be an Eisenbahn (railway) unit. The EWB brand is the same as can be found on luger grips in the same manner as yours. Some Mauser carbines will also be found with the same brand marking as on your luger.

I hope this is helpful.

[lawrence]

I still have a chance to purchase the Luger I saw Saturday. My knowledge of P o8's is limited and even more so with the Erfurt. The gun is an honest
90% and has not been re-blued. The only thing different I saw was a crown-over RC barrel. Downside = Fair grips, with rounded points on checkering. Right side grip has a 1 inch x 1/4 inch gash (hunk) missing
from just behind the trigger. It has a numbered wood bottomed mag in "good" shape. This mag does not match the gun. The guy has it in a 1941(I think) hardshell P-38 holster that would go with the gun. Would anyone please venture a guess as to value? I think I can buy for $1,000.00.
Thanks. Lawrence

[Schupo]

Lawrence,

That sounds a bit steep to me but may not be too far out of line with a nice holster. The crown over RC marking indicates there was something about the pistol that was out of spec when the barrel was made but was fixable. I don't think I would want to pay that much for a 90% pistol with a mismatched magazine and out of spec barrel. I would check to make certain the grips are serial numbered to the gun because you are basically buying the grips with the pistol attached in this case.

Good luck!

George

[Lyn Islaub]

George,
Thank you for your input, as it has been educational and informative. I had never, until this point, considered the "RB" marking to be anything more than someone's idle carving and your input has given me a new appreciation. By the way, I have had your book for a couple of years now and find it to be an equally valuable resource.
Regards, Lyn

[Schupo]

Lyn,

You are certainly welcome, and thanks for the kudos on my "Seitengewehr" book. I am glad you find it useful.

I would be perfectly comfortable with the correctness of your pistol markings. I have seen upside down numbers before when the armorer got careless; or more probably allowed an apprentice to do the grunt work like applying markings. I guess it would be too much to ask a guy that works on one ton train parts to get too detailed when applying markings to a pistol.

George

[lawrence]

I think I will go ahead and make the purchase. Dealer is down to 900.00 and I can sale the P-38 holster. Just an oddity that I can't pass up. In the above description I described an inch x 1/4 in. piece (actually a bit smaller than that) broken from the right grip panel, just behind the trigger.
Question: Is there anyone you guys know of who could professionally repair this? It would be tough, the grip is well worn and mating the checkering pattern would be hard. Just wondered if this was even a possibility? Thanks. Lawrence

[Schupo]

Lawrence,

Please post photos of your DR marked pistol when you get it. I would like to see it and compare it to Lyn's.

BTW, here is a photo of a Deutsche Reichsbahn marked Czech CZ27 that I just picked up. The Reichsbahndienst and Bahnschutz also carried these pistols during the war.