Failure to go into battery every time

[RWBlue01]

First Luger P08. First post here. Gun guy who usually fixes my own issues. This one has me stumped.

I have a 1940 P08 Army Mauser, not all the numbers match, but most.

When I try to cycle rounds (shooting or hand cycling), the toggle doesn't go all the way down some of the time. Out of battery, 1/4 inch. I smack down the top and it s good to go.

I posted on a gunsmthing forum and they gave me the standard advice. New Megar mag, new Wolff Spring, clean and lube. Well, I already bought those.

Swapped out the spring to Wolff heaviest in the pack. Shoot again. It locks back on empty mag.
Still having same issues.

So I have been hand cycling live rounds (wolf, PMC, Remington, Winchester Silver tip, spear gold dot), dummy rounds, German blue plastic rounds, trying to debug, but....
All seem to have issues when hand cycling, except the blue plastic ones. But after I hand cycle a couple times, I swear they feed more often.

Is this just ammo issue OR....????

[DonVoigt]

Could be, singly or in combination:
-Dirty or damaged chamber, or something stuck in there
-striker spring too strong
-since it is not matching, headspace may be tight
-bent rails or other friction slowing down return to battery- you should not have any problem
hand cycling, but take out the striker. If the problem goes away- you know what it was/is.
If not it is much safer!
-bent or too strong ejector
-too strong or long extractor spring, or stuck extractor

Need any more ideas?

Welcome to the board.

[ithacaartist]

Also be sure when hand cycling to have the action pulled completely open and let it go so that it snaps shut--no lowering of the toggle knobs. The recoil spring imparts less force the closer it is to battery and depends on the momentum established by allowing the fully extended action to close sharply.

[4 Scale]

I recently had the exact same problem and traced the issue to the extractor, it was aftermarket. Installing an original extractor instantly fixed it.

I'd suggest you tell us which parts are matching/supply some photos. You never know, some guns have been fixed when photos were posted.

Don's advice is excellent. Things must of course eventually be tested at the range but I use inert rounds as much as possible.

Fixing Lugers is much easier when you can swap parts with or inspect a correctly functioning example. You might disclose your location, perhaps there is a member near. Most gunsmiths don't know Lugers, you are typically on your own to fix them.

[RWBlue01]

[4 Scale]

A few things immediately look a bit curious on your photos:

There seems to be a beveled or recessed area on the breech bolt on each side of the extractor near the top front of the breech bolt. This area should not be recessed, someone has done some work.

The extractor should be a numbered part on a byf, with the number visible on top. This extractor is not original to the pistol.

The side of the ejector visible on the outside of the gun should have a uniform appearance. This ejector has some surface issue at front - I can't tell what it is but it doesn't look right. If you compare the right side of your pistol to photos of other pistols you'll see what I mean. I'm wondering if there is a weld.

I'd suggest remove the extractor and ejector and post detailed photos of those parts and the front of the breech bolt from several angles.

[RWBlue01]

https://www.gunpartscorp.com/gun-man...rer/luger/p-08

Removed striker assembly (part 22, 23, 24),
Remington had one issue (high probability it was me)
PMC still sucks. I think it is worse.

Chamber looks good.

I have racked this enough times, if the frame rails or toggle was too tight, I think I would see wear.

Barrel looks original (correct serial number, and the mark on bottom). Being that everything locks up, some of the time, I think the chamber isn't too tight. But I didn't pick up any brass...

[RWBlue01]

And I typed the above, but forgot to sent.

Continued to play with it... Now the remington isn't causing me any issues. I wish I was somewhere I could shoot a few rounds. Or knew someone with another one so I could see one which works.

PMC still sucks.

[G.T.]

Hi RWBlue01, well, I have a suggestion, send it to me, (the top half)and I'll fix and test it! The breechblock is broken at the extractor relief, and I would bet that the receiver is causing some restriction under firing that is delaying or buffering the toggle train under dynamic stress.... It will NEVER wear in! I have a ton of parts, and several test frames to work with... At the very least i can verify and correct if necessary, any problems with the top half?... If you wish to see my references, just search GT or GT Specialties on this forum?... I will do this service for reasonable cost for the parts only, no labor!... My email address is: gctomeks@msn.com Let me know..... best, til....lat'r.....GT...

[4 Scale]

RWBlue01, if G.T, is offering to assist you, run don't walk to your nearest shipper and let him at it. He is a wizard at fixing Lugers and a real pleasure to deal with. He's helped me with numerous issues, I have yet to send him something he couldn't fix.

[Doubs]

I second G.T. and his fine work. He'll get your Luger straightened out and working correctly.

[Heinz]

You will get no better shooter than one
GT has fixed. Take him upon his offer

[DonVoigt]

You should replace the damaged breechblock. the missing areas serve to retain and limit
motion of the extractor and are a likely source of your problem.

Breechblocks are not inexpensive, but important for function and safety.

GT can do this for you.

[spangy]

Originally Posted by DonVoigt

You should replace the damaged breechblock. the missing areas serve to retain and limit
motion of the extractor and are a likely source of your problem.

Breechblocks are not inexpensive, but important for function and safety.

GT can do this for you.

100% agree DV .... A long shot but make sure you have a fluted firing pin ... The non fluted is original, due to primer rupture and blow back that would destroy the firing pin and sometimes the toggle. They replaced them with a fluted pin that has a grove to allow gas to escape and this might have accounted for the original breech block damage if it occurred.
And having Dr.GT look @ it is an offer too good to refuse in my book .... good luck M8

[RWBlue01]

Originally Posted by spangy

100% agree DV .... A long shot but make sure you have a fluted firing pin ... The non fluted is original, due to primer rupture and blow back that would destroy the firing pin and sometimes the toggle. They replaced them with a fluted pin that has a grove to allow gas to escape and this might have accounted for the original breech block damage if it occurred.
And having Dr.GT look @ it is an offer too good to refuse in my book .... good luck M8

I have the flutted firing pin. Thanks

All this taking apart and putting together, I have gone from 15 minutes to less than 5. I feel like I should be speaking german.

[DonVoigt]

Originally Posted by spangy

They replaced them with a fluted pin that has a grove to allow gas to escape and this might have accounted for the original breech block damage if it occurred.
And having Dr.GT look @ it is an offer too good to refuse in my book .... good luck M8

Sprangy,
That is not the original or intended purpose of the grooves, they are there to collect gunk, dirt, trash and allow the striker to still function.
It is however often repeated "common knowledge" that is just not accurate.

This subject has been the focus of several threads, but if one simply observes the location and extent of the grooves, it is clear that there is nowhere for any trapped gas to go, even with the striker to its full rear position.

[Doubs]

Originally Posted by DonVoigt

Sprangy,
That is not the original or intended purpose of the grooves, they are there to collect gunk, dirt, trash and allow the striker to still function.
It is however often repeated "common knowledge" that is just not accurate.

This subject has been the focus of several threads, but if one simply observes the location and extent of the grooves, it is clear that there is nowhere for any trapped gas to go, even with the striker to its full rear position.

Don, while Gortz & Sturgess acknowledge that the flutes had the primary purpose of allowing oil and dirt to flow past the firing pin to prevent build up of residue that reduced the impact force of the firing pin, they also point out that the flutes do, in fact, allow gasses from a punctured primer to bleed off and reduce the rearward thrust of the firing pin that would otherwise cause damage if the firing pin was not fluted. G&S point out that it is a benefit but, as you state, not the purpose for which the flutes were intended. G&S red books, pages 1115 & 1116.

[DonVoigt]

Originally Posted by Doubs

Don, while Gortz & Sturgess acknowledge that the flutes had the primary purpose of allowing oil and dirt to flow past the firing pin to prevent build up of residue that reduced the impact force of the firing pin, they also point out that the flutes do, in fact, allow gasses from a punctured primer to bleed off and reduce the rearward thrust of the firing pin that would otherwise cause damage if the firing pin was not fluted. G&S point out that it is a benefit but, as you state, not the purpose for which the flutes were intended. G&S red books, pages 1115 & 1116.

Doubs,
I know G&S "say" that, but it is a physical impossibility.
"They" got that statement wrong; it just is not physically possible, there is no where for the gas to escape to!

Marc,
The reference to the fluted, or gapped alignment disc shown in the drawing for the rifle bolt is an entirely different situation, and those channels do lead to an "expansion" area and eventually to the outside of the bolt.

Carefully observe the length of the grooves in the luger striker, and how far they extend, and find where the closest gas "escape" route is- the two do not intersect.
There is a slight possibility that some grooves cut by hand, when an old style striker was modified to include the grooves, "Might" be cut deep enough, and long enough, and in the correct alignment with the sear tab opening to "connect" just a bit-
But that condition is only met if all three requirements were met by accident !

Such a co-incidence was not intended and is not observed in machine/jigged production strikers.

I know the presence of the grooves just begs for the answer to be "gas management", but it just is not so.

Just an addition note, the Finns added a "real" gas escape hole in the bottom of their breech blocks, that hole is far enough forward to allow gas to escape.
Swiss strikers have a flat milled into the front and rear bearing surfaces of the striker to allow gas to pass along the length of the striker and exit the breech block.

Both of these later techniques/modifications do serve to allow gas to escape from the front of the striker in event of a pierced primer.

[spangy]

Originally Posted by DonVoigt

Sprangy,
That is not the original or intended purpose of the grooves, they are there to collect gunk, dirt, trash and allow the striker to still function.
It is however often repeated "common knowledge" that is just not accurate.

Thanks DV & Doubs ... you know I knew that ... I have read exactly what you said elsewhere but sometimes my 70 year old brain misfires and I don't always remember These days I often can't remember anything past the last 24 Hrs. ... a combination of old age and the drugs I have to take for chronic pain.

John Walter (The Luger Book p.116) notes that the fluted firing pin was patented by Georg Luger as early as 1893 (DRP 78,406; DRP 90,433) as a method to keep striker-chambers clear of fouling.

Also as we are talking about a 1940 P08 Army Mauser its my understanding that it would have been manufactured with a fluted firing pin anyway as the fluted design was instituted in 1934. Having said that we can't know that the firing pin may have been replaced with a non fluted design in some other repair cycle.

so much to know ... so little time.

[RWBlue01]

I am a little hard headed when it comes to fixing my own guns. I bought it specifically because it isn't a Browning derivative (different). I want to take it to the range one more time before giving up.

Remington continues to feed.
Wolf Classic doesn't.
Wolf Performance doesn't
I know I have some Winchester white box around, but can't find it.

I played with the extractor. It seems to move freely.

Any other ideas?

If I can't get it to work...