1914 DWM ARTILLERY

tnak · 03-06-2003, 01:00 AM

I am a novice Japanese militaria collector and ran across a 1914 DWM Artillery luger dated 1917. The pistol itself appears to be close to
100%. It also has a snail drum magazine, loading tool, matching spare mag, 2 spare mag pouches and the thing I am concerned with is the stock/holster. The stock/holster appear too new and I couldn't find any stamps on the wood or leather. Should there be any stamps? If everything is original, what would be a value for this gun. Thanks

Edward Tinker · 03-06-2003, 01:58 PM

I am no expert in this field, I have seen complete rigs (gun and holster) go from $1,700 - $2,500, but as a novice collector you must be very careful. Looking at Lugers, they are great to collect, but there are many fakes and fake holsters out there. Easy for an expert to ID, hard for someone like you and me. So unless you pay repro prices for the stock, I would be hesitant to jump right in. In addition, real snail drum magazines themselves go for $800 and up, about the same for loading tools. So my point is, it can get expensive fairly quickly.

Hopefully some of the experts of this type will jump in.

Welcome to the forum, I live close to your border,

Ed

tnak · 03-07-2003, 04:28 AM

Thanks for the reply Ed. I hope to learn to identify the fakes you talk about, hopefully by looking at authentic pieces and also fakes. What are fake stock and holsters worth? In my dealings with Japanese militaria, I have come across many pieces that I don't know anything about,such as lugers, and so now I am going to try and branch out a little and hope to expand my horizons. Tracy

tnak · 03-07-2003, 04:30 AM

Also, someone emailed me privately and I accidently deleted his message (too much spam) Could that someone please email me back. I would like to contact you. Tracy

Dwight Gruber · 03-07-2003, 10:03 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by tnak:
I hope to learn to identify the fakes you talk about, hopefully by looking at authentic pieces and also fakes. What are fake stock and holsters worth?<hr /></blockquote>Tracey,

In the area of Lugers, it is useful to make a distinction between "reproductions" and out-and-out fakes. Regarding accessories such as holsters and stocks, there are new reproductions out there which are not intended to decieve, but to allow a Luger owner to have a representitive accessory which they could not otherwise afford or find; or to use in place of an expensive collectible. This is more or less acceptable, depending on the procilvities of the individual collector.

This is distinct from a "fake", whose intent is to decieve a potential buyer by appearing to increase value. There is, of course, the intersection of the inexperienced or unwary collector and unscrupulous owner who might try to foist a "reproduction" off as original.

I would "ballpark" a reproduction stock/holster rig at 10%-20% the value of an authentic rig. Non-authentic drum magazines are usually non-functional decorations, or standard 8-shot magazines with reproduction drums added on--these are easy to detect, perhaps by the existence of a magazine button or by noteably light weight. I have seen these offered at gun shows for $150 or so.

A stock rig with no markings on either the holster or stock certainly sound other than original.

--Dwight

tnak · 03-07-2003, 11:35 AM

Thanks Dwight. Your information is greatly appreciated. In my case, if anything is not authentic, I would call it a fake, because the seller is representing it as being authentic. Tracy

lugerholsterrepair · 03-07-2003, 04:18 PM

Tracy, The stock should have a serial number on the top of the metal attaching piece. The wood should have a crown over letter halfway or so on the left side. Look at the wood to metal fit. If original it should be perfect. If fake it will have gaps. Also the wood on an original should look old. Darker with dents etc. New stocks are generally speaking, new oak, lighter in color with no use marks.

Holsters are studies in themselves but the same goes for them. They should look old. Stitching on a WW1 era holster will be corded linen. NOT synthetic or cotton.

If you are going to branch out into Lugers this sounds like a good start but I would recommend some good books like Luger Holsters and Accesories by Bender. Shows plenty of original stuff to compare with. Good Luck! Jerry Burney

tnak · 03-07-2003, 08:21 PM

Jerry, Thanks for the info. I am trying to soak it all in. I am now trying to build a German library and will look for the book mentioned. I am impressed with all the input everyone is giving me and I truly appreciate it. Tracy

Edward Tinker · 04-09-2003, 01:25 AM

Tracy's friend e-mailed me pictures of his new Artillery. Pictures are above:

Ed

03-06-2003, 01:00 AM	#1
tnak User Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: idaho Posts: 28 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	1914 DWM ARTILLERY I am a novice Japanese militaria collector and ran across a 1914 DWM Artillery luger dated 1917. The pistol itself appears to be close to 100%. It also has a snail drum magazine, loading tool, matching spare mag, 2 spare mag pouches and the thing I am concerned with is the stock/holster. The stock/holster appear too new and I couldn't find any stamps on the wood or leather. Should there be any stamps? If everything is original, what would be a value for this gun. Thanks

03-06-2003, 01:58 PM	#2
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,914 Thanks: 1,989 Thanked 4,504 Times in 2,079 Posts	I am no expert in this field, I have seen complete rigs (gun and holster) go from $1,700 - $2,500, but as a novice collector you must be very careful. Looking at Lugers, they are great to collect, but there are many fakes and fake holsters out there. Easy for an expert to ID, hard for someone like you and me. So unless you pay repro prices for the stock, I would be hesitant to jump right in. In addition, real snail drum magazines themselves go for $800 and up, about the same for loading tools. So my point is, it can get expensive fairly quickly. Hopefully some of the experts of this type will jump in. Welcome to the forum, I live close to your border, Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

03-07-2003, 10:03 AM	#5
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,890 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,282 Times in 424 Posts	</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by tnak: <strong>I hope to learn to identify the fakes you talk about, hopefully by looking at authentic pieces and also fakes. What are fake stock and holsters worth?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Tracey, In the area of Lugers, it is useful to make a distinction between "reproductions" and out-and-out fakes. Regarding accessories such as holsters and stocks, there are new reproductions out there which are not intended to decieve, but to allow a Luger owner to have a representitive accessory which they could not otherwise afford or find; or to use in place of an expensive collectible. This is more or less acceptable, depending on the procilvities of the individual collector. This is distinct from a "fake", whose intent is to decieve a potential buyer by appearing to increase value. There is, of course, the intersection of the inexperienced or unwary collector and unscrupulous owner who might try to foist a "reproduction" off as original. I would "ballpark" a reproduction stock/holster rig at 10%-20% the value of an authentic rig. Non-authentic drum magazines are usually non-functional decorations, or standard 8-shot magazines with reproduction drums added on--these are easy to detect, perhaps by the existence of a magazine button or by noteably light weight. I have seen these offered at gun shows for $150 or so. A stock rig with no markings on either the holster or stock certainly sound other than original. --Dwight

03-07-2003, 04:18 PM	#7
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,761 Thanks: 4,863 Thanked 3,101 Times in 1,427 Posts	Tracy, The stock should have a serial number on the top of the metal attaching piece. The wood should have a crown over letter halfway or so on the left side. Look at the wood to metal fit. If original it should be perfect. If fake it will have gaps. Also the wood on an original should look old. Darker with dents etc. New stocks are generally speaking, new oak, lighter in color with no use marks. Holsters are studies in themselves but the same goes for them. They should look old. Stitching on a WW1 era holster will be corded linen. NOT synthetic or cotton. If you are going to branch out into Lugers this sounds like a good start but I would recommend some good books like Luger Holsters and Accesories by Bender. Shows plenty of original stuff to compare with. Good Luck! Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

04-09-2003, 01:25 AM	#9
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,914 Thanks: 1,989 Thanked 4,504 Times in 2,079 Posts	Tracy's friend e-mailed me pictures of his new Artillery. Pictures are above: Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

03-07-2003, 04:28 AM	#3
tnak User Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: idaho Posts: 28 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks for the reply Ed. I hope to learn to identify the fakes you talk about, hopefully by looking at authentic pieces and also fakes. What are fake stock and holsters worth? In my dealings with Japanese militaria, I have come across many pieces that I don't know anything about,such as lugers, and so now I am going to try and branch out a little and hope to expand my horizons. Tracy

03-07-2003, 04:30 AM	#4
tnak User Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: idaho Posts: 28 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Also, someone emailed me privately and I accidently deleted his message (too much spam) Could that someone please email me back. I would like to contact you. Tracy

03-07-2003, 11:35 AM	#6
tnak User Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: idaho Posts: 28 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks Dwight. Your information is greatly appreciated. In my case, if anything is not authentic, I would call it a fake, because the seller is representing it as being authentic. Tracy

03-07-2003, 08:21 PM	#8
tnak User Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: idaho Posts: 28 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Jerry, Thanks for the info. I am trying to soak it all in. I am now trying to build a German library and will look for the book mentioned. I am impressed with all the input everyone is giving me and I truly appreciate it. Tracy