Please help ID this Luger

SoftwarePerson · 03-17-2015, 08:43 PM

I have this 9mm Luger I inherited from my father who told me that he brought back from WWII where he served in Italy. He had a German holster with it plus another magazine that did not go with the gun. I know there are no military marking on the gun so its use during WWII is questionable, and I was once told it was a "1920 Commercial Luger". I would like to know more about the gun so I am uploading these pictures. The last picture is the underside of the toggle bolt. Do those marks mean anything? I have a lot of questions to ask if anyone is willing to help me.

Thanks

drbuster · 03-17-2015, 10:09 PM

This is an interesting luger! Features of this pistol include: early Cc/U Mauser proof left of receiver, no date on chamber, DWM marked toggle, police sear safety, large fonted magazine bottom (wooden) with number II stamped, suffix "v". Page 15 of Jan Still's Weimar lugers depicts a table, which in the right lower corner states: "v" Mauser commercial range. Mostly commercial production. Few police. Date range for these was 1930-31. I believe this luger was assembled at the Mauser factory early in luger production, from DWM parts left over by BKIW, the successor of DWM during the Weimar period. The sear safety and magazine are police issue. Are there any markings on the front grip strap which would help peg what police district it went to? The markings under the rear of the receiver are worker/inspector marks of no major significance. Thus, this is an early Mauser commercial luger, made of assembled BKIW parts and was shunted to the police at an unknown date. It would be nice to see if the front grip strap is marked. Did it come to you with a holster?

Edward Tinker · 03-18-2015, 12:21 AM

The way you can tell it went to police is the sear safety on the left, see the FAQ for more info

It is NOT a 1920 commercial, they said that because of the commercial markings.

SoftwarePerson · 03-18-2015, 01:24 AM

There is a single letter "I" under the number 1145 on the magazine. I can not seem to get a clear picture showing that.

The gun was stored in a black leather holster until I received it. I stored the gun and holster separately since. I will have to look for the holster as it is probably still boxed after my last move. Is there anything I should look for in the holster?

Attached are some more pictures. I did not see any marking on the front grip strap, but I did see an "N" and a "B" with the wood grip removed (last picture).

I have "The Luger Handbook" by Aarron Davis. It looks like my gun might match page 50, except I can not find a number on the extractor, thumb safety lever, or wood grip. Also where on the breech block should I find a number? I found matching numbers on the side plate, take down lever, toggle, and trigger. Not sure what part is the "receiver" that should have a number. Someone pointed out the extractor color was bit off from the barrel so it must be a replacement part per the person. So I wonder if other parts were replaced. Should the safety bar be blue steel instead of what is shown in the picture? Do the firing pin parts look authentic? There is wear on the toggle bolt which is why I stopped shooting it.

ithacaartist · 03-18-2015, 02:56 AM

Dan, welcome to the forum. The mark on the mag, I believe, designates it as number 1/primary mag, marked in police fashion, which beyond the matched number, means it goes with a police gun. No, those are more of the "process" marks from manufacture under the grips. Unit markings are definitely more blatant than that! (Check out some pics in the "Unit Markings" category and you will see what I mean.) Having them adds lots of richness to a gun's story because once the unit, police dept, etc. is identified by the markings, the unit's history and exploits can be researched.

You have started your membership off with a gem, sir. It looks like a really nice one, a fine family heirloom--and treasure. Posts above reveal that it occupies a special niche, as an example; and a good one, too, because it's looking really good as far as overall condition, original finish, matching numbers, etc. So, a collectible, not a shooter, eye candy on this site! The matching mag is veeery desirable, and I'll bet what you have is a police holster, when you find it, which is another plus. There are also guys who can decipher the stampings it might have, so you can see there is plenty to learn.

It is a good thing to have something like this insured. There are forum members with the specific knowledge and experience needed to establish its value for these purposes.

Shooting it would, of course, be your choice. The biggest caveat cautions against anything that would break or damage the pistol, and numbered original parts do fail, in turn lopping off 50%, generally, of the value!

Hmmm...now you must consider finding another in shooter grade. We shall see if the Luger Bug bites...

drbuster · 03-18-2015, 09:21 AM

The pictures clearly show no unit markings on the front grip strap which in no way negates that this luger went to the police, we just cannot tell which police district or unit. The Cc/U proof on the left receiver is an early Mauser mark placed on assembled guns from left over DWM parts sent from Berlin to Oberndorf documented by August Weiss in his letters printed in Datig's book The Luger Pistol. It may initially have been meant for commercial sales but obviously ultimately went to police service as witnessed by the sear safety and apparent police marked magazine bottom. It had to be early (1926-1931) as later police lugers received aluminum bottoms (see page 184 in Still's Weimar Lugers). The safety level is strawed, as it should be and the firing pin is fluted, a later replacement by the Mauser factory in Oberndorf. It might be nice to see if the holster is of police type or military type, if it can be located.

Lugerdoc · 03-18-2015, 09:55 AM

Dan, I agree with Dr. Buster's comments above. The unnumber safety parts are correct for this model and the extractor appears to be original to me and if so, should have the last 2 digits of the serial (46) marked INSIDE. Tom

mrerick · 03-18-2015, 10:34 AM

Hi Dan, and welcome to the forum.

You have a relatively rare and desirable very early Mauser commercial Luger that was made for police use just at the end of the Weimar era in Germany. Your father's bring back was likely used during WW-II, and is a wonderful war trophy.

The numbering placement and pattern for commercial guns is different than that found in military marked Lugers. Your Luger is correct as far as I can see, and has evidence of being in it's original finish. This is the way collectors highly value them. As close to their original state as possible.

Don't be concerned about the color of the extractor. These were specially heat treated for hardness and can have a different appearance.

The markings under your toggle train parts are manufacturing marks that were applied as parts went through the manufacturing process. They are associated with specific internal factory inspectors.

The parts for this gun were likely manufactured by DWM in Berlin, and traveled on the train with August Weiss when Luger manufacturing operations were transferred from there to Mauser in Oberndorf am Neckar in Wurttemburg.

You were very wise to separate the Luger from it's holster. Storage in a holster can damage the finish. Also be particularly careful when removing the grips, especially the left one up near the safety lever. Many grips get broken up in that area.

I also don't shoot collectible Lugers. Too much real risk of damage.

Of interest is the firing pin. The there fluting cuts in it are characteristic of a change the Mauser introduced at about the time your Luger was made. They prevent blowback damage should a primer be pierced. It looks authentic to me. The appearance of the fluting cuts is that they may have been done after initial manufacture, possibly by hand. It would be good to get a closer look at it. This could represent modification of original DWM parts to accommodate the engineering change Mauser made.

Police Lugers are relatively rare. Very early Mauser Lugers are relatively rare. Finding a Luger with it's original numbered police magazine is very rare.

SoftwarePerson · 03-18-2015, 05:28 PM

Thanks much for all the information. I read the FAQ regarding Police Luger. I attached one more picture of the gun which I think means this gun never had a magazine safety? (No hole in frame.).

I found the holster. I will keep it in the safe from now on instead of buried in a closet. Gun and holster to remain separated.

I attached pictures of the holster. No personal or unit markings that I can find. There is on the back of the holster:

OTTOSINDEL
BERLIN
1941

I do not plan to ever shoot this gun again. Wish I had done a better job of caring for it by not shooting it at all, but I did not know better. I should have checked into this a long time ago. Regrettably my father is no longer around to ask for more details on how he got it.

So I now understand the gun is not a "1920 Commercial Luger". In a few words how should I describe it? 1930's German Police Luger?

Thanks again.

Neil Young · 03-18-2015, 07:55 PM

Well, SWP, if you didn't break anything when you shot it, then no harm done.

Edward Tinker · 03-19-2015, 12:16 AM

Although unusual, I would not say numbered magazines on a police are rare. You find many more police with matching magazines than an army model.

Police holster for sure. Is There a loading tool in the pouch?
.
.

lugerholsterrepair · 03-19-2015, 12:32 AM

ED..This Gentleman shows a numbered Police tool in post #1.

drbuster · 03-19-2015, 01:44 AM

Though indeed a police holster dated 1941, this is too late to have been with the pistol when it was first sent to the police in the late 1920's or early 1930's but could easily have been added later. Just adds more interest to this police luger.

SoftwarePerson · 03-20-2015, 09:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lugerdoc

Dan, I agree with Dr. Buster's comments above. The unnumber safety parts are correct for this model and the extractor appears to be original to me and if so, should have the last 2 digits of the serial (46) marked INSIDE. Tom

Being "INSIDE" does that mean I can not see the number without removing the extractor completely from the gun? Otherwise I do not see a number on the extractor at all whether propped up with a dummy round in the chamber or when I field strip the gun to view the hole below the front of the extractor for the firing pin to come out and strike the primer.

Also I can not find a number anywhere on the breechblock. Does that matter?

SoftwarePerson · 03-20-2015, 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edward Tinker

Although unusual, I would not say numbered magazines on a police are rare. You find many more police with matching magazines than an army model.

Police holster for sure. Is There a loading tool in the pouch?
.
.

I did receive the gun and holster with a loading tool in the pouch. Different serial number (1466) on the loading tool so it does not match the gun. There was also a spare magazine in the holster with an aluminum end cap. Regrettably I traded the spare magazine for a gun rug at a gun show over 38 years ago. The spare magazine did not match the gun and it did not slide in and out of the gun as cleanly as the original magazine. I remember it being a bit stiff to slide in and out so I was concerned it would be scratching the metal inside the handle. I still have the gun rug but obviously I wish I still had the spare mag if only to see how it was marked.

DavidJayUden · 03-20-2015, 10:59 AM

That was one expensive gun rug...
dju

rhuff · 03-20-2015, 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SoftwarePerson

Being "INSIDE" does that mean I can not see the number without removing the extractor completely from the gun? Otherwise I do not see a number on the extractor at all whether propped up with a dummy round in the chamber or when I field strip the gun to view the hole below the front of the extractor for the firing pin to come out and strike the primer.?

The "inside number" on the extractor does require the extractor to be removed to view it. The cross pin is pushed out and the extractor and extractor spring will be released.

SoftwarePerson · 03-20-2015, 10:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhuff

The "inside number" on the extractor does require the extractor to be removed to view it. The cross pin is pushed out and the extractor and extractor spring will be released.

Thanks for the information.

I will have to think long and hard if I want to do that. Having replaced the original front sight on another more modern handgun with a night sight, I know how easy it is to slip and leave a mark.

alanint · 03-21-2015, 08:10 AM

The chances of leaving a mark are low. The extractor pin will almost always come out with simple hand pressure. Make sure to hold the extractor down with your thumb to make it easier. The pin area cannot be seen when the pistol is assembled, anyhow.

JTD · 03-21-2015, 10:02 AM

I would not bother the extractor. Dime to a dollar it is correct to this pistol. A scratch or ding is forever. Break the small tab on the extractor, even worse. You have a nice Luger pistol there that I would describe as a BKIW/ Mauser diverted to police service. John

03-18-2015, 12:21 AM	#3
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,931 Thanks: 2,032 Thanked 4,527 Times in 2,090 Posts	The way you can tell it went to police is the sear safety on the left, see the FAQ for more info It is NOT a 1920 commercial, they said that because of the commercial markings. __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

03-18-2015, 01:24 AM	#4
SoftwarePerson User Join Date: Mar 2015 Posts: 16 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 3 Posts	There is a single letter "I" under the number 1145 on the magazine. I can not seem to get a clear picture showing that. The gun was stored in a black leather holster until I received it. I stored the gun and holster separately since. I will have to look for the holster as it is probably still boxed after my last move. Is there anything I should look for in the holster? Attached are some more pictures. I did not see any marking on the front grip strap, but I did see an "N" and a "B" with the wood grip removed (last picture). I have "The Luger Handbook" by Aarron Davis. It looks like my gun might match page 50, except I can not find a number on the extractor, thumb safety lever, or wood grip. Also where on the breech block should I find a number? I found matching numbers on the side plate, take down lever, toggle, and trigger. Not sure what part is the "receiver" that should have a number. Someone pointed out the extractor color was bit off from the barrel so it must be a replacement part per the person. So I wonder if other parts were replaced. Should the safety bar be blue steel instead of what is shown in the picture? Do the firing pin parts look authentic? There is wear on the toggle bolt which is why I stopped shooting it. Attached Thumbnails

03-18-2015, 02:56 AM	#5
ithacaartist Twice a Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Atop the highest hill in Schuyler County NY Posts: 3,343 Thanks: 7,264 Thanked 2,576 Times in 1,364 Posts	Dan, welcome to the forum. The mark on the mag, I believe, designates it as number 1/primary mag, marked in police fashion, which beyond the matched number, means it goes with a police gun. No, those are more of the "process" marks from manufacture under the grips. Unit markings are definitely more blatant than that! (Check out some pics in the "Unit Markings" category and you will see what I mean.) Having them adds lots of richness to a gun's story because once the unit, police dept, etc. is identified by the markings, the unit's history and exploits can be researched. You have started your membership off with a gem, sir. It looks like a really nice one, a fine family heirloom--and treasure. Posts above reveal that it occupies a special niche, as an example; and a good one, too, because it's looking really good as far as overall condition, original finish, matching numbers, etc. So, a collectible, not a shooter, eye candy on this site! The matching mag is veeery desirable, and I'll bet what you have is a police holster, when you find it, which is another plus. There are also guys who can decipher the stampings it might have, so you can see there is plenty to learn. It is a good thing to have something like this insured. There are forum members with the specific knowledge and experience needed to establish its value for these purposes. Shooting it would, of course, be your choice. The biggest caveat cautions against anything that would break or damage the pistol, and numbered original parts do fail, in turn lopping off 50%, generally, of the value! Hmmm...now you must consider finding another in shooter grade. We shall see if the Luger Bug bites... __________________ "... Liberty is the seed and soil, the air and light, the dew and rain of progress, love and joy."-- Robert Greene Ingersoll 1894

03-18-2015, 09:55 AM	#7
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	Dan, I agree with Dr. Buster's comments above. The unnumber safety parts are correct for this model and the extractor appears to be original to me and if so, should have the last 2 digits of the serial (46) marked INSIDE. Tom __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

03-18-2015, 10:34 AM	#8
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,909 Thanks: 1,374 Thanked 3,110 Times in 1,510 Posts	Hi Dan, and welcome to the forum. You have a relatively rare and desirable very early Mauser commercial Luger that was made for police use just at the end of the Weimar era in Germany. Your father's bring back was likely used during WW-II, and is a wonderful war trophy. The numbering placement and pattern for commercial guns is different than that found in military marked Lugers. Your Luger is correct as far as I can see, and has evidence of being in it's original finish. This is the way collectors highly value them. As close to their original state as possible. Don't be concerned about the color of the extractor. These were specially heat treated for hardness and can have a different appearance. The markings under your toggle train parts are manufacturing marks that were applied as parts went through the manufacturing process. They are associated with specific internal factory inspectors. The parts for this gun were likely manufactured by DWM in Berlin, and traveled on the train with August Weiss when Luger manufacturing operations were transferred from there to Mauser in Oberndorf am Neckar in Wurttemburg. You were very wise to separate the Luger from it's holster. Storage in a holster can damage the finish. Also be particularly careful when removing the grips, especially the left one up near the safety lever. Many grips get broken up in that area. I also don't shoot collectible Lugers. Too much real risk of damage. Of interest is the firing pin. The there fluting cuts in it are characteristic of a change the Mauser introduced at about the time your Luger was made. They prevent blowback damage should a primer be pierced. It looks authentic to me. The appearance of the fluting cuts is that they may have been done after initial manufacture, possibly by hand. It would be good to get a closer look at it. This could represent modification of original DWM parts to accommodate the engineering change Mauser made. Police Lugers are relatively rare. Very early Mauser Lugers are relatively rare. Finding a Luger with it's original numbered police magazine is very rare. __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

03-17-2015, 08:43 PM	#1
SoftwarePerson User Join Date: Mar 2015 Posts: 16 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 3 Posts	Please help ID this Luger I have this 9mm Luger I inherited from my father who told me that he brought back from WWII where he served in Italy. He had a German holster with it plus another magazine that did not go with the gun. I know there are no military marking on the gun so its use during WWII is questionable, and I was once told it was a "1920 Commercial Luger". I would like to know more about the gun so I am uploading these pictures. The last picture is the underside of the toggle bolt. Do those marks mean anything? I have a lot of questions to ask if anyone is willing to help me. Thanks Attached Thumbnails

03-17-2015, 10:09 PM	#2
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	This is an interesting luger! Features of this pistol include: early Cc/U Mauser proof left of receiver, no date on chamber, DWM marked toggle, police sear safety, large fonted magazine bottom (wooden) with number II stamped, suffix "v". Page 15 of Jan Still's Weimar lugers depicts a table, which in the right lower corner states: "v" Mauser commercial range. Mostly commercial production. Few police. Date range for these was 1930-31. I believe this luger was assembled at the Mauser factory early in luger production, from DWM parts left over by BKIW, the successor of DWM during the Weimar period. The sear safety and magazine are police issue. Are there any markings on the front grip strap which would help peg what police district it went to? The markings under the rear of the receiver are worker/inspector marks of no major significance. Thus, this is an early Mauser commercial luger, made of assembled BKIW parts and was shunted to the police at an unknown date. It would be nice to see if the front grip strap is marked. Did it come to you with a holster?

03-18-2015, 09:21 AM	#6
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	The pictures clearly show no unit markings on the front grip strap which in no way negates that this luger went to the police, we just cannot tell which police district or unit. The Cc/U proof on the left receiver is an early Mauser mark placed on assembled guns from left over DWM parts sent from Berlin to Oberndorf documented by August Weiss in his letters printed in Datig's book The Luger Pistol. It may initially have been meant for commercial sales but obviously ultimately went to police service as witnessed by the sear safety and apparent police marked magazine bottom. It had to be early (1926-1931) as later police lugers received aluminum bottoms (see page 184 in Still's Weimar Lugers). The safety level is strawed, as it should be and the firing pin is fluted, a later replacement by the Mauser factory in Oberndorf. It might be nice to see if the holster is of police type or military type, if it can be located.

03-18-2015, 05:28 PM	#9
SoftwarePerson User Join Date: Mar 2015 Posts: 16 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 3 Posts	Thanks much for all the information. I read the FAQ regarding Police Luger. I attached one more picture of the gun which I think means this gun never had a magazine safety? (No hole in frame.). I found the holster. I will keep it in the safe from now on instead of buried in a closet. Gun and holster to remain separated. I attached pictures of the holster. No personal or unit markings that I can find. There is on the back of the holster: OTTOSINDEL BERLIN 1941 I do not plan to ever shoot this gun again. Wish I had done a better job of caring for it by not shooting it at all, but I did not know better. I should have checked into this a long time ago. Regrettably my father is no longer around to ask for more details on how he got it. So I now understand the gun is not a "1920 Commercial Luger". In a few words how should I describe it? 1930's German Police Luger? Thanks again. Attached Thumbnails

03-18-2015, 07:55 PM	#10
Neil Young Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Scottsboro, Alabama Posts: 546 Thanks: 559 Thanked 442 Times in 168 Posts	Well, SWP, if you didn't break anything when you shot it, then no harm done. __________________ Neil The hurrier I go the behinder I get. Sometimes it takes me all day to get nothing done.

03-19-2015, 12:16 AM	#11
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,931 Thanks: 2,032 Thanked 4,527 Times in 2,090 Posts	Although unusual, I would not say numbered magazines on a police are rare. You find many more police with matching magazines than an army model. Police holster for sure. Is There a loading tool in the pouch? . . __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

03-19-2015, 12:32 AM	#12
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,771 Thanks: 4,928 Thanked 3,124 Times in 1,434 Posts	ED..This Gentleman shows a numbered Police tool in post #1. __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

03-19-2015, 01:44 AM	#13
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	Though indeed a police holster dated 1941, this is too late to have been with the pistol when it was first sent to the police in the late 1920's or early 1930's but could easily have been added later. Just adds more interest to this police luger.

03-20-2015, 10:59 AM	#16
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	That was one expensive gun rug... dju

03-21-2015, 08:10 AM	#19
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	The chances of leaving a mark are low. The extractor pin will almost always come out with simple hand pressure. Make sure to hold the extractor down with your thumb to make it easier. The pin area cannot be seen when the pistol is assembled, anyhow.

03-21-2015, 10:02 AM	#20
JTD User Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: PA Posts: 425 Thanks: 217 Thanked 408 Times in 149 Posts	I would not bother the extractor. Dime to a dollar it is correct to this pistol. A scratch or ding is forever. Break the small tab on the extractor, even worse. You have a nice Luger pistol there that I would describe as a BKIW/ Mauser diverted to police service. John