After ten years and lots of looking..

Navy · 10-28-2002, 09:24 PM

Hello all,

Am pleased to report that I have secured closure on one of the few known and recognized as genuine '04 Navy pistols.

I have been on thquest for 10+ years and have had to face many distractions, such as career changes, kids college, weddings, births, and deaths. But I stayed the course. I sold almost all of my non-Imperial Navy collection (Thanks guys, you know who you are!) at a small loss to free up the cash-its tough to do high end guns when the stockmarket sucks, and this has not been a deal for the financially faint hearted.

But in the final analysis, I prevailed.

This has occupied most of my waking moments for the past several days, so I apologize if I have not closed the loop with anyone in correspondence.

Bottom line: I now own one each of every known version of Navy Luger. Photos to follow as time permits a suitable shoot.

Some days its really great to be alive!

Tom A. <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />

John D. · 10-28-2002, 09:41 PM

C O N G R A T U L A T I O N S!!!!! [img]biggrin.gif[/img]

We want pictures!!!! We want pictures!!!!

What a terrific achievement Tom!!! Seriously - outstanding!!!!

Doubs · 10-28-2002, 10:06 PM

Fantastic, Tom. That has to be a very satisfying feeling to have such a collection. Post the pictures as soon as you can..... I'll be looking for them.

Jimbo · 10-28-2002, 10:17 PM

Congratulations, Tom. I can only imagine what it feels like to fulfill such a search and dream. You must be elated.

Pictures, Tom! We need pictures!!!!! Pictures, pictures, pictures!

Thor · 10-28-2002, 11:01 PM

Hey friend Tom! You know they say the hunt is so much of the fun, now you get to get to enjoy the other half of the equation. Congrats!! A real find and treasure! Your perserverence and patience are rewarded with a gem! Good luck with it buddy!!!!

Big Norm · 10-28-2002, 11:50 PM

C O N G R A D S !!! Now you have to get a Borchardt. Well, it had to ride a boat to get to the USA. The search never ends. Are all your navies original? Two of mine are restored and I haven't the guts nor the knowledge to even try for an '04. You gotta tell us the story of how you found it and determined that it was original. You didn't rob a museum did you?

So when are we going to see a bunch of labeled pictures of your Luger family? You gotta show everyone what we have to shoot at for perfection.
Big Norm
P.S.
I always knew that the one with serial number 51 was original. Hee! Hee!

John Sabato · 10-29-2002, 09:53 AM

Tom... How wonderful for you and your collection!

Send me the photos when you take them and I will be happy to create a Member Gallery Album to pay your collection the tribute it deserves...

Edward Tinker · 10-29-2002, 09:59 AM

Amaaaazing! Congratulations Tom!

Wish I had taken advantage of your sell offs, then I would have known they were good pieces!

Again, send pictures or John or I can post them for you!

Ed

Brandon · 10-29-2002, 10:53 AM

Congratulations Tom!!! Can't wait to see the pictures!!!

Strider · 10-29-2002, 02:17 PM

Tom, congratulations on the new addition. Looking forward to seeing the photos when they are available.
Sid.

John Sabato · 10-29-2002, 03:09 PM

Tom Armstrong's latest acquisition for his Navy Luger collection can be seen in some preliminary photographs that I just posted in the Member Gallery...

It is a FINE looking Luger! Click here to go to the member gallery....

Edward Tinker · 10-29-2002, 03:26 PM

Very nice Tom!

It must be gratifying to find and eventually aquire such a beauty!

Navy · 10-29-2002, 03:26 PM

Lest some one feel compelled to inform me and the group that the Type II holster depicted with the pistol, the ammunition and the ratings patch are not contemporary with the gun, I already know that. Fortunately I do have an 04 holster that I acquired many years ago as well as buckets of Milipass, correct insignia and uniforms contemporary with this piece.

The thrust of my Naval collection has been three fold:
1. Acquire at least one excellent condition Navy in each variation known;
2. Display the pieces along with the appropriate accoutrements, historical context and documentation about the units, ships, campaigns, etc so there would be a strong "human face" to these wonderful pieces.
3. Preservation of capital investment.

As a result of almost fulfilling objectives 1&2, Derek Seltzer and I have begun additional collaboration on a book. It is our intent to portray the full life span of Navy Lugers from 1904 through 1945. We wish to use the book as a vehicle to impress upon others, not just the Luger collecting fraternity, that these artifacts were used by brave young men who were serving their Kaiser and country as their conscience and the law required. We will of course not attempt to provide an apologia for any political ideology.

As a part of this effort, we will, from time to time solict info from the Forum membership at large. All materials submitted to us and used will be duly credited.

So thats it for now; just wished that it would get here soon.

Tom A.

Brandon · 10-29-2002, 08:01 PM

Tom,
Would you mind if I saved those pictures in my "Luger Photo File" for future reference?

By the way: It's BEAUTIFUL!!!

Regards,Brandon

Pete Ebbink · 10-29-2002, 09:30 PM

Heck Tom,

Ten years...? I found one at the Tulsa gun show after only 2-3 hours...of course I was missing the $ 30K in my pocket to buy it... [img]wink.gif[/img]

But I did learn from Ron Wood and Mike Morris that a 1904 Navy should have one of its two Navy proof marks on the rear of the frame above the lanyard ring and the extractor should have those "short ears"...

Congratulations on a wonderful luger !!!

We are all envious...

Pete... <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

Alain · 10-31-2002, 07:05 AM

Tom,

Thanks for posting these beautiful pics to the Member's Gallery.
This 1904 is an absolute gem.
I would be curious to know it's serial number.
Is it true that 1904 had the 90Ã?Â° dicing on the toggle up to a certain serial range and 60Ã?Â° dicing afterwards ?
The 1904 model seems particularly interesting due to it's transitional features.

Rgds,

Alain

Heinz · 10-31-2002, 07:46 PM

Tom, Awesome Navy. And I am grateful for the clearance sale it brought about! We both are happy.

Navy · 11-01-2002, 01:50 PM

Alain,

It is SN 136; the magazine is SN 143. Suffice it to say, I would be willing to pay some very serious money for an imperial Navy magazine with that SN!

I am not certain about the toggle checkering, but if I remember correctly that was part of the transition from the 1903 Prototype test pieces to the production 04 guns.

Tom A. <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

Imperial Arms · 11-01-2002, 02:46 PM

Hello Tom,

In regards to the toggle checkering for the 1903 (French) Commercial and the 1904 Navy Lugers, it should be square shaped unlike the later 1906 Navy Lugers which are diamond shaped. I remember your 1904 Navy Luger serial #136 having the correct checkering as well as the two-piece toggle lock when I examined it one and a half years ago.

Also bear in mind the small extractor lobes which Pete mentioned in a previous post which was a good observation.

I would like to mention that the style of proof marks on your Luger pistol is of the late type as compared to 1904 Navy Lugers below serial number 100(?). Those 1904 Navy Lugers below serial #100 will usually have the early crown M proof marks which will have the 'old-fashioned' crown with three elongated 'lobes', and 'ears' on the side.

I am sorry I cannot provide an image of this specific proof, but there was an article about it in The Gun Report some months ago written by Charles Kenyon. Maybe Ron would like to make some comments about these different proof marks on the 1904 Navy Luger and their application by Navy Arsenals. Although you might know this already, the Crown M proof mark on the barrel is on the side, whereas on the 1906 Military models it is under the barrel.

Another little detail which might interest some readers to determine if a 1904 Navy 'fat' barrel is correct or incorrect is to identify the very thin 'ring' in the chamber just before the 'step'. This little ring which was applied by DWM on all Navy Luger barrels during production cannot be reproduced inside the chamber, not even by the best machinist. I did observe this ring in your 1904 Navy Luger #136 which is a big positive plus.

I hope this information is of help.

Cheers,
Albert

John Sabato · 11-01-2002, 03:04 PM

I would love to see a clear photograph of the chamber "ring" or even a chamber cast posted so the forum members know what to look for in this model Navy...

10-28-2002, 11:01 PM	#5
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	Hey friend Tom! You know they say the hunt is so much of the fun, now you get to get to enjoy the other half of the equation. Congrats!! A real find and treasure! Your perserverence and patience are rewarded with a gem! Good luck with it buddy!!!! __________________ Thor's Luger Clinic http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/ Ted Green (Thor Yaller Boots) 725 Western Hills Dr SE, Rio Rancho, NM 87124 915-526-8925 Email thor340@aol.com ----------------------------------- John3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

10-29-2002, 09:53 AM	#7
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Tom... How wonderful for you and your collection! Send me the photos when you take them and I will be happy to create a Member Gallery Album to pay your collection the tribute it deserves... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

10-29-2002, 09:59 AM	#8
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,912 Thanks: 1,989 Thanked 4,502 Times in 2,077 Posts	Amaaaazing! Congratulations Tom! Wish I had taken advantage of your sell offs, then I would have known they were good pieces! Again, send pictures or John or I can post them for you! Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

10-29-2002, 03:09 PM	#11
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Tom Armstrong's latest acquisition for his Navy Luger collection can be seen in some preliminary photographs that I just posted in the Member Gallery... It is a FINE looking Luger! Click here to go to the member gallery.... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

10-29-2002, 03:26 PM	#12
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,912 Thanks: 1,989 Thanked 4,502 Times in 2,077 Posts	Very nice Tom! It must be gratifying to find and eventually aquire such a beauty! __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

10-28-2002, 09:24 PM	#1
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	After ten years and lots of looking.. Hello all, Am pleased to report that I have secured closure on one of the few known and recognized as genuine '04 Navy pistols. I have been on thquest for 10+ years and have had to face many distractions, such as career changes, kids college, weddings, births, and deaths. But I stayed the course. I sold almost all of my non-Imperial Navy collection (Thanks guys, you know who you are!) at a small loss to free up the cash-its tough to do high end guns when the stockmarket sucks, and this has not been a deal for the financially faint hearted. But in the final analysis, I prevailed. This has occupied most of my waking moments for the past several days, so I apologize if I have not closed the loop with anyone in correspondence. Bottom line: I now own one each of every known version of Navy Luger. Photos to follow as time permits a suitable shoot. Some days its really great to be alive! Tom A. <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />

10-28-2002, 09:41 PM	#2
John D. Administrator & Site Owner LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A Little NE of Somewhere... Posts: 2,651 Thanks: 471 Thanked 513 Times in 127 Posts	C O N G R A T U L A T I O N S!!!!! [img]biggrin.gif[/img] We want pictures!!!! We want pictures!!!! What a terrific achievement Tom!!! Seriously - outstanding!!!!

10-28-2002, 10:06 PM	#3
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,670 Thanks: 771 Thanked 1,614 Times in 525 Posts	Fantastic, Tom. That has to be a very satisfying feeling to have such a collection. Post the pictures as soon as you can..... I'll be looking for them.

10-28-2002, 10:17 PM	#4
Jimbo User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SF CA Posts: 167 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Congratulations, Tom. I can only imagine what it feels like to fulfill such a search and dream. You must be elated. Pictures, Tom! We need pictures!!!!! Pictures, pictures, pictures!

10-28-2002, 11:50 PM	#6
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	C O N G R A D S !!! Now you have to get a Borchardt. Well, it had to ride a boat to get to the USA. The search never ends. Are all your navies original? Two of mine are restored and I haven't the guts nor the knowledge to even try for an '04. You gotta tell us the story of how you found it and determined that it was original. You didn't rob a museum did you? So when are we going to see a bunch of labeled pictures of your Luger family? You gotta show everyone what we have to shoot at for perfection. Big Norm P.S. I always knew that the one with serial number 51 was original. Hee! Hee!

10-29-2002, 10:53 AM	#9
Brandon User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Tennessee, USA Posts: 329 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Congratulations Tom!!! Can't wait to see the pictures!!!

10-29-2002, 02:17 PM	#10
Strider User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Albuquerque, New Mexico Posts: 256 Thanks: 26 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Tom, congratulations on the new addition. Looking forward to seeing the photos when they are available. Sid. __________________ Sid. Patience is a bitter plant, but it has sweet fruit. ~German Proverb If it is made before 1930 ..........It is a prototype.

10-29-2002, 08:01 PM	#14
Brandon User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Tennessee, USA Posts: 329 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Tom, Would you mind if I saved those pictures in my "Luger Photo File" for future reference? By the way: It's BEAUTIFUL!!! Regards,Brandon

10-29-2002, 09:30 PM	#15
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Heck Tom, Ten years...? I found one at the Tulsa gun show after only 2-3 hours...of course I was missing the $ 30K in my pocket to buy it... [img]wink.gif[/img] But I did learn from Ron Wood and Mike Morris that a 1904 Navy should have one of its two Navy proof marks on the rear of the frame above the lanyard ring and the extractor should have those "short ears"... Congratulations on a wonderful luger !!! We are all envious... Pete... <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

10-31-2002, 07:05 AM	#16
Alain Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: france Posts: 42 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Tom, Thanks for posting these beautiful pics to the Member's Gallery. This 1904 is an absolute gem. I would be curious to know it's serial number. Is it true that 1904 had the 90Ã?Â° dicing on the toggle up to a certain serial range and 60Ã?Â° dicing afterwards ? The 1904 model seems particularly interesting due to it's transitional features. Rgds, Alain

10-31-2002, 07:46 PM	#17
Heinz User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Greenville SC Posts: 1,004 Thanks: 377 Thanked 410 Times in 180 Posts	Tom, Awesome Navy. And I am grateful for the clearance sale it brought about! We both are happy.

11-01-2002, 01:50 PM	#18
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	Alain, It is SN 136; the magazine is SN 143. Suffice it to say, I would be willing to pay some very serious money for an imperial Navy magazine with that SN! I am not certain about the toggle checkering, but if I remember correctly that was part of the transition from the 1903 Prototype test pieces to the production 04 guns. Tom A. <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

11-01-2002, 02:46 PM	#19
Imperial Arms Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Malta, EU Posts: 579 Thanks: 0 Thanked 7 Times in 7 Posts	Hello Tom, In regards to the toggle checkering for the 1903 (French) Commercial and the 1904 Navy Lugers, it should be square shaped unlike the later 1906 Navy Lugers which are diamond shaped. I remember your 1904 Navy Luger serial #136 having the correct checkering as well as the two-piece toggle lock when I examined it one and a half years ago. Also bear in mind the small extractor lobes which Pete mentioned in a previous post which was a good observation. I would like to mention that the style of proof marks on your Luger pistol is of the late type as compared to 1904 Navy Lugers below serial number 100(?). Those 1904 Navy Lugers below serial #100 will usually have the early crown M proof marks which will have the 'old-fashioned' crown with three elongated 'lobes', and 'ears' on the side. I am sorry I cannot provide an image of this specific proof, but there was an article about it in The Gun Report some months ago written by Charles Kenyon. Maybe Ron would like to make some comments about these different proof marks on the 1904 Navy Luger and their application by Navy Arsenals. Although you might know this already, the Crown M proof mark on the barrel is on the side, whereas on the 1906 Military models it is under the barrel. Another little detail which might interest some readers to determine if a 1904 Navy 'fat' barrel is correct or incorrect is to identify the very thin 'ring' in the chamber just before the 'step'. This little ring which was applied by DWM on all Navy Luger barrels during production cannot be reproduced inside the chamber, not even by the best machinist. I did observe this ring in your 1904 Navy Luger #136 which is a big positive plus. I hope this information is of help. Cheers, Albert

11-01-2002, 03:04 PM	#20
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	I would love to see a clear photograph of the chamber "ring" or even a chamber cast posted so the forum members know what to look for in this model Navy... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*