Opinions Wanted

[Marvin]

OK, I am going to start something here and I would appreciate everyones opinion. Most are aware of the little "asterisk" that shows up on a Luger occasionally. It is also noted on many other German ordnance products produced during the war. There is NO KNOWN or DUCUMENTED explanation of what this "asterisk" means. I have my opinion, but will wait until I hear from others. The most popular opinions to date is that it is a mark of "rejection" for the part. It is a heat treat check mark.


This subject has been batted around the Luger community for years with no one winning their side of the story, so what is the opinion of the Forum Members?


Marvin

[Dok]

I believe this was the mark used by Ted Green's grandfather who did excellent reworks on Lugers. The mark was put there so everyone would know this was a rework and would not later be sold as an original. Hope this helps.


Dok

[Marvin]

Dok,


This was funny and I got a great laugh out your posting. I wonder if Ted knew his relatives were in the German Military? HA, HA, HA.


On a serious note, there has been no definitive conclusion to the question by all the experts in the Luger field, only opinions. I feel that with the Luger "Braintrust" this Forum has, we can provide a number of opinions that may help us all understand this puzzle. For all the P.38 lovers on the Forum, they were stamped in more numerous quantity that Lugers. is this any help in opinions?


Marvin

[bill m]

Hi Marvin,

I have heard a couple explanations for the asterisk, a rejection mark, and a hardness test mark. I'm pretty sure it is a hardness test mark, done in batches of say 20 out of every 500. Are we of the same opinion?

[Dok]

in light of recent postings by bill m and others regarding the placing of "marks" by reworkers, and how over time those Lugers could wind up in the collector's arena, I couldn't pass up the parody. No slight intended. I am following this thread with interest... Dok

[Rick K]

Where is this asterisk located on an individual pistol? Can any of you post a picture of what you're speaking of? I kinda thought Dok was being facetious, but knowing how ignorant I am, I just had to wait and see. Please elucidate. Thanks

The earlist noted asterisk for me is on a mismatched Barrel assembly on what is otherwise an all matching early Zero Banner P38. I have seen lots on cyq's. However, I have not observed any on a Luger yet.

[Ted]

Bill and Marvin, I have seen other pin prick shaped hardness test marks on breech blocks sides. Both of Bills explanations seem plausible to me! Ted

[Ted]

There are a few pics in Stills books but they are copy righted, I will have to go look and see where they are located! Ted

[bill m]

[bill m]

Earliest I've seen are on 1940/42's, but have heard of them on byf 41's also.

[Rick K]

Thanks Bill.

[Marvin]

Bill and All Others,


The two thoughts Bill stated are the most prevelent for an explanation as to the meaning of the "asterisk", but I gave a lot of thought to this and came up with this theory:


The "asterisk" began to show up on German Ordnance in the early 1940s and became more and more prevelent as the war progressed. It is seen on the barrels of Lugers and on the slide, locking block and barrels of P.38s with the "cyq" probably having the most, then Mauser, and then Walther.


To use this as a rejection mark makes a lot of sense, but the Germans would.should not have worried too much about this in the early part of the war. As for Luger rejected parts, they could be used for commercial production, or the later contract pistols to Portugal, etc.


As to it being a heat treat mark, it is to large when the little "dimple" does the same thing. In my years dealing with machine shops, there has never been any machine or stamps this size to indicate a heat treat check. Why would they want to put this mark on them except to say the heat treat passed inspection. Good theory and could be true.


Now for my theory. The SS was the provider of labor to the many industrial plants in Germany. The SS provided this labor from the Concentration Camps and they were paid by the Manufacturing Company that used these people. Since many of them did not want to be there in the first palce, there was a chance that Sabatoge to the parts may take place and the manufacturers knew this. Since they were paying the SS for this labor, they should be resonsible for them to NOT cause problems with parts being out of spec, or deliberate sabatoge. To accomplish this additional inspection process, the SS used the "asterisk" as a stamp to show that a ramdom check had been performed by the SS to verify the part was good. As the war progressed, more and more forced labor was used and the need for more checks on the SS provided laborers work.


There is a photo of an SS schoolroom with this "asterisk" on the blackboard with other SS Runes. Why would the SS be using this symbol and it not show up more often. Was it one of the more obscure Runes and it was picked as the inspection stamp? With this little bit of tie-in to the SS, it was what started me thinking on this theory. If the SS provided labor, they were paid for this labor, the manufacturers should hold them respnsible for these people to a certain extent and they did their own QC check by using one of thier own Runes!


OK, there is no right or wrong answer to this question, just thoeries and speculation. Blast away on my theory and tear it apart so it can be eliminted or maybe it could be true!


Marvin

[bill m]

Hi Marvin,

There is also the possibility that the asterisk on a P.38 does not mean the same thing as the asterisk on a P.08. The SS theory is an interesting one, but I have one question on it -- if this was a SS inspection stamp, is it also found on rifles, sub-machine guns, and other pistols, magazines, and equipment, field equipment and ect., as the SS would inspect all this also and want quality. I have not heard of this asterisk being on anything other than the P.08 and the P.38. Has anyone else?

[bill m]

Hi Marvin,

After reading your post again and again, I have a couple of other questions. First, can we establish that the Mauser factory that made the Lugers was using forced labor, and if so, was it obtained by the SS, and if so, as early as 1940, or before actually, as there would have to be time for a sabatoge to arise to cause this kind of an inspection. In 1940, the P.38's and the Lugers were really starting to be rolled out in huge numbers, and the German Army was rolling over everything in there path without any resistance to speak of. It seems to early to me to have this kind of stuff happening with SS inspections and sabatoge and ect. Also, if this was an SS inspection stamp of some kind, I would think we would see it a lot more on the Lugers. 1940 seems to be the most common with a very few later on. To me, the "hardness test" is still the most logical answer. Just my opinon. Your theory has it's possibilities also.

[Kyrie]

Hi Folks,


Who had how much of what kind of authority in the occupied territories, and to what degree they could exercise it, is a real mess. Very generally speaking, the Allgemeine SS had control of security matters, the 'Ostminister' (loosely translated, 'General Commissar') had complete civil responsibility, and Reich's Foreign Ministry had responsibility for locating politically useful people in the occupied territories.


The Allgemeine SS spent any time not required in looting either deporting civilians to work and death camps or simply murdering anyone in the local population they considered potential troublemakers.


The Ostminister was responsible for supplying skilled workers to German industries and for employing local skilled workers in any local industry beneficial to the war effort.


The Reich's Foreign Ministry was responsible for bringing any useful people it could find back to Germany for indoctrination and deployment in unoccupied enemy territory to encourage separatist movements.


These three organizations were working completely at odds. As often as not the skilled workers (many Jewish) needed by the Ostminister to either work locally or to respond to labor drafts from Berlin were being deported or just murdered by the Allgemeine SS, as were the politically useful people required by the Reich's Foreign Ministry. An example of this occurred in Minsk in 1941, when the SS took 310 civilian prisoners from the local jail and shot them in a ditch (a ready made grave, and damn the drainage problems). In these 310 people were 23 skilled Polish workers supplied by the Poland Ostminister to the Minsk Ostminister to do needed local work, and who had simply been billeted in the local jail until better quarters could be found.


I mention all this to provide some rather grim context.


By and large, the Allgemeine SS had nothing to do with supplying workers to Germany - their job was security. "Guest workers" in Germany were, OTOH, under the join control of the local industrial managers (during working hours) and the SS (during off hours, or while being transported). The upshot of all of this is the SS had very little to do with manufacturing, and controlled manufacturing only in those instances where the local industrial managers had been chosen due to SS political influence, or where the local manager was afraid to cross the local Allgemeine SS security commander by denying any of his requests.


The SS controlled almost no manufacturing facilities in Germany, but had great influence in Czechoslovakia. Their influence elsewhere ranged from great to none, depending on how well politically connected (and hence how well protected) the local manufacturing managers were.


The upshot of all this is the Allgemeine SS had almost no control of the manufacture of P.38's, Lugers, or Kar98k rifles. In those relatively rare cases where they exercised some de facto (but not dejure) control, they avoided marking any weapons produced as SS so as not to give away the game.


Hope this helps to provide a little context.


Best regards,


Kyrie

[Marvin]

I will try to answer both of your questions in one post. This is really aninteresting thread to me to get differnt opinons on the mark!


Since the SS controlled the Concentration Camps and the inmates were used in manufacturing to supplement the "free" workers, I felt that maybe the manufacturer's, like Mauser, Walther, etc. would require guards for the inmates quartered close to the work area. These guards would be SS Concentration Camp guards from their respectivce camps. The SS would not be in control of any manufacturing, just as guards. My theory would be that since the guards were there, and the manufacturing company was paying a small amount to the SS for the use of the labor, the manufacturers would want some type of guarantee that the inmates would not cause problems from a revolt to damaged parts.


The reason that Lugers don't have the number of stamps that P.38s have is that the use of forced labor was drastically increased as the war continued by Albert Speer. Therefore, the later the war, the more often the "asterisk" is seen. It has been noted on K98k rifles from Mauser and I don't recall if from other rifle manufacturers. The "asterisk" has been noted on all type ordnance from machine pistols, MG-42, Aircraft machine guns, artillery, bombs, etc. All these manufacturers used the forced labor where these inmates were controlled by the SS. I can see the theory on the heat treat test, but the one picture I saw on an MG-42 was on a stamped part which was probably (don't know for sure, just speculation) not heat treated.


We will probably never know the real truth, but speculation is sometimes fun to discuss.


Marvin

[bill m]

Hi,

Still thinking about this. The SS inspection just doesn't seem plausible to me. To have SS inspecting Luger barrels at the factory, and only barrels just doesn't seem logical. To even have them over-seeing the work at the Mauser factory doesn't seem logical. And if the SS did, why wouldn't they use the SS runes, as in 1940 they were the "big shots", and there was no need to hide who they were, was there? The more I think about this the more I doubt the asterick has anything to do with the SS. I still think it is some kind of "special" production or test mark, that has nothing to do with "who inspected it", but rather, was the quality up to standards, and was randomly tested on so many Lugers in each production run. I think it could be the same on the P.38, a random test to check for quality on these mass produced assembly lines. Who knows? Interesting, and thought provoking.

[Marvin]

Bill,


This may very well be the case of some type inspection, I just wish we knew what and why!!!!


On the Lugers, I have only seen them on the barrel. On the P.38, they can be on the slide, frame, and/or the locking block. Why not on some of the other Luger parts like they did on the P.38???? Also, the Spreewerk seems to have more of them than Mauser or Walther.


Marvin