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Unread 06-25-2023, 10:52 AM   #21
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While I wasn't explicit in my previous post, I agree with wlyon 100%. DO NOT shoot +P ammo in any Luger or older firearm. A few shots may not show any ill effects but a continued diet of +P will surely damage the gun.
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Unread 06-25-2023, 11:56 AM   #22
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Doubs, it is going back so not an issue....it had a grace period with the purchase of 24 hours.

How about an observation/guess tho for debates sake as many have this non cycling issue.

The barrel is 'stout' and a modern recent piece...from the 1970's/80's I'd guess based upon the sights. I believe it could take plus P honestly (the barrel alone) as it is thick and newer.

The recoil, or a great deal of it, is absorbed by the mass of that barrel hence the failure to extract. If shot with a stock (+P) it cycles. If I remove the stock and 'limp wrist it' it stove pipes the brass...so long enough to extract but not enough to clear the receiver. So, the +P is just at the edge. presently, of operation. The brass does not go as far as my other Lugers but they clear nicely.
If that is the case...how much impulse is being sent to the action/bolt/toggle mechanism if it just barely operates? I understand you'd not want plus P or a hot round in an original barrel but would that be as critical in a modern bore/chamber?

For discussions sake.
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Unread 06-25-2023, 06:03 PM   #23
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Cont. I know everyone plays on the side of caution but one question.... many have said you can 'break a toggle' etc. If the weapon with a normal round ( Winch 1154 WB) will not extract and a plus P (hand held) will stovepipe then the toggle assembly is not even hitting the frame ramp or just barely.

How does one break the toggle/action in that case?

Not being argumentative but maybe I am missing something.
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Unread 06-25-2023, 08:14 PM   #24
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The pressure of a cartridge fired in the Luger is transmitted to the inclined locking surface of the rear toggle link, not the frame ramps. Cracks can develop in the corners of these areas, both in the toggle link and in the frame. The barrel make take pressure "til the cows come home", but the rearward pressure on the somewhat fragile toggle train is the weak point.
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Unread 06-25-2023, 10:37 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gunbugs View Post
The pressure of a cartridge fired in the Luger is transmitted to the inclined locking surface of the rear toggle link, not the frame ramps. Cracks can develop in the corners of these areas, both in the toggle link and in the frame. The barrel make take pressure "til the cows come home", but the rearward pressure on the somewhat fragile toggle train is the weak point.
Thanks, my question is this. I get your description too.

I can see that if the weapon is cycling fully and one is using a hot round. That could easily stress and fracture those thin/cut out areas. Are you saying that the same stress is present even if the weapon will not fully cycle or execute a full action movement?

However, imo, If there is not enough pressure, or barely enough pressure, to cycle the action is that stressing that area? I would say no but I am no expert on the Luger specifically. If it is not being 'hit' or not hit hard it should be within its capability.??

p.s. I am not trying to validate using +p or any specific round...simply trying to garner the experience of those here by asking pointed questions. I know, at some point, I will be dealing with a long barrel unassisted by the forward stock helper as I won't spend that kind of money for a carbine...and I want a 9mm.
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Unread 06-26-2023, 01:05 AM   #26
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reiver, I'm not sure how to answer your questions. The toggle train is secured to the receiver via an axel pin which initially absorbs the energy of the recoil until the toggles break and the action opens. They can and will break. A cartridge with too much pressure can also damage the breechblock. A ruptured primer can blow out the firing pin and keeper while a ruptured case can cause damage to various parts including the magazine.

The newest military Lugers are 80 years old and some are as much as 114 years old - counting only the P.08 and not earlier models. Shooting +P and other high pressure loads in them is like shooting .38 Super in the Astra 400/Model 1921 pistols. They'll take it for awhile... until they fail. The wisest course of action is to only feed them standard pressure cartridges.
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Unread 06-26-2023, 11:27 AM   #27
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Thanks Doubs...that makes sense.
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Unread 06-26-2023, 07:06 PM   #28
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These are the areas that receive the stress of the pressure from firing. The sharp corners are susceptible to cracking from excess stress or fatigue. The inclined area is the actual locking surface that takes the pressure of firing. The Toggle knobs don't really do anything until the pressures have dropped and the upper receiver has travelled to the rear to start the unlocking sequence by the knobs striking the frame ears and forcing them upward to "break" the toggle joint.

https://forum.lugerforum.com/attachm...1&d=1687820755

https://forum.lugerforum.com/attachm...1&d=1687820755

https://forum.lugerforum.com/attachm...1&d=1687820755
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Unread 06-26-2023, 11:33 PM   #29
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Thanks GB...that is very informative. Those were not the area(s) I was focusing on...

Last edited by reiver; 06-27-2023 at 12:47 AM.
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Unread 06-27-2023, 10:40 PM   #30
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Gents.... I am going to try Win Nato 124 gn....1188 fps/ mv 388..if it breaks it breaks but not much of an issue for me as I have another complete 'top' in a Navy 6" export that will work fine if this goes south.
It has been aftermarket moded anyways and I got it at a shooter price. I'll let you know how that works out. I will keep a round count and round type log....

p.s. when I decided to return it he made me a deal I couldn't refuse...I honestly believe he did not know this was misrepresented (altho he should have)...he trusted and knew the person that sold it to him, took his word.
When he realized his mistake he had no problem making it right. That or he is a great BSer...either way we are both satisfied.
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Unread 06-28-2023, 12:45 AM   #31
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NATO 9mm is on the same level a +P; i.e., HOT. Do as you wish but I strongly advise against it.
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Unread 06-28-2023, 11:45 AM   #32
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I know Doubs...a tad less...some, Like Sig is hotter and the Winchester less so... there isn't much one can do with the barrel/ext. as it is anyway other than remove etc......so, it'll survive or not.
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Unread 06-28-2023, 10:49 PM   #33
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Changing out this wacky barrel to mount something lighter/shorter/more "kosher" might be your best bet. Less risk of breakage, and better shot at function with recommended ammo...
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Unread 06-29-2023, 05:05 PM   #34
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I am cutting the barrel down to 12" from 14.5 (measured at the breech)...removed the wonky f/r sights too. Will recrown and see what dif that makes.... if that does not work I may turn the barrel to a more proper profile to lose some more fat.
May go with a Navy rear sight...or get a carbine one, then a proper ramp. Anyways.... moving along.

If that is a no go I've discussed some options with Eugene and he guarantee's he'll make it run with normal ammo.... I like to try first as that would be excellent but spendy. Options are good.

Appreciate all of the comments.
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Unread 06-30-2023, 10:56 AM   #35
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Just my opinion but I'd cut that barrel to 8 inches. Twelve may still have too much mass to function with normal cartridges.
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Unread 06-30-2023, 12:41 PM   #36
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Doubs... my neighbor the Gunsmith (school trained) is only charging me an hours of work to cut that back/recrown...fifty bucks.

So, I can incrementally sneak up on it.

Or, if I want to retain the length send it to Eugene and have the barrel turned to reduce weight. I just don't know if I can afford (for this pistol) his well deserved price.

Slowly I turn, step by step, inch by inch
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Unread 07-07-2023, 06:53 PM   #37
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A good day. I had the barrel cut down to 12ish from the breech, re crowned. Well, I didn't expect much but boy howdy.
She runs now as fast as I can pull with 115 gn Win White Box.
Now I have to decide what I want to do sight wise...Navy rear? Original from ramp would be nice.

Ideally I'd get the barrel turned to reduce the profile but we'll see.
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Unread 07-07-2023, 06:57 PM   #38
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what was removed...will make a nice pen holder.
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Unread 07-07-2023, 07:23 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reiver View Post
what was removed...will make a nice pen holder.
Or a #2 pencil holder
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Unread 07-10-2023, 08:51 PM   #40
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GT is helping me out with a Navy rear sight toggle and a front ramp...I know you guys say he is a pita but I find him quite helpful
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