![]() |
my profile |
register |
faq |
search upload photo | donate | calendar |
![]() |
#1 |
Patron
LugerForum Patron Join Date: May 2018
Location: wyoming
Posts: 276
Thanks: 700
Thanked 328 Times in 132 Posts
|
![]()
Just wondering why the German military stopped the practice of placing unit markings on their firearms after 1916? I assume it was because it seemed to be impractical but was there another reason?
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#2 |
Always A
Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Colorado
Posts: 2,417
Thanks: 225
Thanked 2,600 Times in 933 Posts
|
![]()
The Germans ended the practice of unit marking for security reasons.
Norm |
![]() |
![]() |
The following 8 members says Thank You to Norme for your post: |
![]() |
#3 |
Moderator
Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Europe
Posts: 5,053
Thanks: 1,036
Thanked 3,987 Times in 1,205 Posts
|
![]()
Yes, it's like putting the GPS coordinates of your secret base on the side of your tank.
|
![]() |
![]() |
The following 3 members says Thank You to Vlim for your post: |
![]() |
#4 |
Super Moderator
Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: North of Spokane, WA
Posts: 15,924
Thanks: 2,012
Thanked 4,517 Times in 2,087 Posts
|
![]()
For WW1 it might have ended in 1916 - but marking was used through the weimar years
army and police |
![]() |
![]() |
The following 2 members says Thank You to Edward Tinker for your post: |
![]() |
#5 |
Patron
LugerForum Patron Join Date: May 2018
Location: wyoming
Posts: 276
Thanks: 700
Thanked 328 Times in 132 Posts
|
![]()
Yeah sure that makes a lot of sense!
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#6 |
User
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: near Charlotte NC
Posts: 4,681
Thanks: 1,441
Thanked 4,350 Times in 2,040 Posts
|
![]()
And some 1917 and 1918 lugers are found with unit markings- not everyone
got the memo. ![]()
__________________
03man(Don Voigt); Luger student and collector. Looking for DWM side plate: 69 ; Dreyse 1907 pistol K.S. Gendarmerie |
![]() |
![]() |
The following member says Thank You to DonVoigt for your post: |
![]() |
#7 |
User
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Byron, Georgia
Posts: 1,692
Thanks: 789
Thanked 1,670 Times in 548 Posts
|
![]()
Considering that armorers put the markings on the guns at unit level, it's possible that - as Don suggests - not everyone got the message OR someone in the command structure of the unit insisted that their guns be marked. Why we may never know but we do know that a small number of 1917 and 1918 Lugers were unit marked.
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#8 | |
Patron
LugerForum Patron Join Date: May 2018
Location: wyoming
Posts: 276
Thanks: 700
Thanked 328 Times in 132 Posts
|
![]() Quote:
|
|
![]() |
![]() |
The following member says Thank You to jeb111 for your post: |
![]() |
#9 |
User
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 63
Thanks: 0
Thanked 48 Times in 23 Posts
|
![]()
That would depend on how high up the food chain it had to go for repairs.
And a thought: could the unit-marked 1917 and 1918 pistols seen have been older frames with newer uppers, force-matched in serial number during rebuild? |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#10 |
Patron
LugerForum Patron Join Date: May 2018
Location: wyoming
Posts: 276
Thanks: 700
Thanked 328 Times in 132 Posts
|
![]()
Something to think about for sure.
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#11 | |
User
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: near Charlotte NC
Posts: 4,681
Thanks: 1,441
Thanked 4,350 Times in 2,040 Posts
|
![]() Quote:
renumbered pistols. Everyone just didn't get the message or chose not to comply- as Doubs said.
__________________
03man(Don Voigt); Luger student and collector. Looking for DWM side plate: 69 ; Dreyse 1907 pistol K.S. Gendarmerie |
|
![]() |
![]() |
The following 4 members says Thank You to DonVoigt for your post: |
![]() |
#12 |
User
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: FRANCE
Posts: 906
Thanks: 39
Thanked 467 Times in 195 Posts
|
![]()
I have seen some 17 and 18 with new unit mark create during those years , new regiments made with some unit subsistant from destroyed regiment
__________________
Best regards from France...Patrice https://www.fichier-pdf.fr/2016/03/1...nd-snail-drum/ |
![]() |
![]() |
The following member says Thank You to LU1900 for your post: |
![]() |
#13 |
User
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Michigan, on the border
Posts: 75
Thanks: 2
Thanked 15 Times in 9 Posts
|
![]()
I just bought a 1916 DWM Luger from an estate yesterday (3-13-21). It has unit markings on the front of the grip.
Lock and Load! |
![]() |
![]() |
The following member says Thank You to Michigan Gunner for your post: |
![]() |
#14 |
User
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 63
Thanks: 0
Thanked 48 Times in 23 Posts
|
![]()
Which reminds me of a tale that may or may not be true. When the British army changed the dress code to not require/prohibit pig-tails (an early man-ponytail) they also changed the uniform code regs. With the pig-tail, uniform jackets had a small tab or triangle of leather sewn onto the collar, to keep the hair oil (applied to make it behave, and "look good") out of the collar wool.
At least one regiment received the order to nix the pig-tail, but did not get the order to remove the leather patch. So they proudly kept sewing leather collar patches on their uniforms until the regs caught up with them. I can see some by-the-book senior NCO or officer insisting "Until I get it in writing, I'm not going to stop doing what earlier orders require me to do." Or, a senior NCO in the armorers unit, who got rotated back before the change (wounded, convalescing, whatever) and came back after, stubbornly insisted on marking until someone told him to knock it off. Wars are usually messy affairs. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#15 |
Moderator
2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso
Posts: 7,003
Thanks: 1,086
Thanked 5,133 Times in 1,687 Posts
|
![]()
I think that is engraved in stone someplace, but without the "usually".
Ron
__________________
If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#16 |
Lifer
Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: PORT ST LUCIE, FLORIDA
Posts: 12,216
Thanks: 6,209
Thanked 4,133 Times in 2,173 Posts
|
![]()
The explanation above makes sense! If lost or sent for repair, they knew where to return it!! Also to keep track of how many went where or returned!
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#17 |
Lifer
Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: PORT ST LUCIE, FLORIDA
Posts: 12,216
Thanks: 6,209
Thanked 4,133 Times in 2,173 Posts
|
![]()
Did unit marking begin in 1913> I have 2 unmarked and one marked '7. T .3. 51.' Telegraph Unit
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#18 |
User
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: near Charlotte NC
Posts: 4,681
Thanks: 1,441
Thanked 4,350 Times in 2,040 Posts
|
![]()
Not all pistols were marked, so having unmarked luger pistols of any date is not unusual.
__________________
03man(Don Voigt); Luger student and collector. Looking for DWM side plate: 69 ; Dreyse 1907 pistol K.S. Gendarmerie |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#19 |
Super Moderator - Patron
LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA
Posts: 3,907
Thanks: 1,374
Thanked 3,108 Times in 1,509 Posts
|
![]()
The concept of concealment permeated the German thinking as they realized that they had to dodge the inspectors for the IMKK (Versailles Treaty Inter Military Control Commission).... While the police pistols were authorized for Simson manufacture and rework (and were being unit marked) in the Weimar era, other activities at the arms factories were not permitted.
There is documentation of one of these dodges of inspectors in Mauser during that period. They were not permitted to make "military" caliber pistols for commercial sale, so they designated their C-96 pistols as being "C-96 Pistol model .30 Mauser" in the books which were audited by IMKK staff in Berlin. The actual pistols were "C-96 Pistol model .30 Mauser with 9mm barrel" as found in factory records and being manufactured in Oberndorf. I expect that when IMKK inspectors showed up in Oberndorf, those "special" orders were set aside somewhere. By 1934, after the Nazi government had decided to ignore the IMKK and Versailles Treaty restrictions, concealment codes really came into use. First was the "K" in 1934 and "G" in 1935 for date codes, and the use of "S" as part of the manufacturer concealment "S/42" to imply some relationship with SImson - the IMKK authorized manufacturer of pistols under the Versailles Treaty. I suspect handguns and specifically controlled items were the early products to get concealment codes, which eventually spread widely in their contracting. You can see that by then, unit markings had been abandoned for several years with security and concealment of the movement of military units (and eventually the formation and migration of police agencies) a reasonable motivation.
__________________
- Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
|
|