Second round

[Ted G]

Lets try again and see if we can stay focused (Luger ID posting} With pictures this time, I would still like to find as much information as I can about what I have. The best I have been able to come up with is it is a 1914 Military model that has been through the Mauser facility sometime during its life. The gun is clean, all the S/N's match except for the sear bar and the barrel is double stamped, once with the S/N and again with the Mauser S/42. I have not been able to establish just what that might mean. Any help would be greatly appreciated. See my first post (LUGER ID) for more details on its history. I do know it has not been out of a locked cabinet since 1955 except when I took it out to make sure it was still oiled etc. I am sure it didnt go any further the preceeding 10 years either. Here are the pictures.

http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/barrel.jpg

http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/frame.jpg

http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/frame-sn.jpg

http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/top.jpg

http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/619right.jpg

http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/619left.jpg

If you can shine any light in my eyes thanks and Happy New Year. If any of you out there would care to give me your opinion in the guns condition and or possible value range please do so to my home e-mail
Ted@tdspecialties.com

Again a big thanks to all.

[Hugh]

Ted G,

In my opinion, your gun is a 1914 DWM Luger that had the original bbl replaced in 1935-1937 at the Mauser Gewehr Factory #3 as evidenced by the addition of the SE GW3 stamp to the left of the original 4 DWM stamps on the right side of the receiver. The S/42 is a "Mauser replacement code" which was on the bbl when it was installed. Apparently at the time of the replacement, the frame's original serial number was stamped on the replacement bbl. This is unusual, as replacement bbls were normally left unmarked. (The GW3 can be found on pages 307 & 309 of WORLD OF LUGERS by Costanzo).

The mismatched sear bar could have been added at that time, but was probably added at a different time either before or after the Mauser rebarrel.

So...let the sniping began! <img src="graemlins/icon107.gif" border="0" alt="[icon107]" />

[RockinWR]

Hugh
Accurately & well stated - given the variables/unknowns.

John G.
- Thanks for the good pictures above which now begin to unlock the provenience of this example. Please understand all "on track" data provided so far has been pertinent. Hugh has arranged this data chronologically where it makes more evolutionary sense. To peel this onion a bit further, I've done some reading and can offer:
- Hugh's use of "SE" is Collector's shorthand for the "Stick Wing/Eagle" appearing over the "GW3" receiver marking. Unlike the original Imperial period (1914) acceptance markings of Crown/E(C/E),C/E,C/X and DWM test proof (Beschussadler) Eagle mark to the right, this SE GW3 was used in the early Nazi (1933-1937) time period.
- John Walter, in his Luger book on Pgs. 133 & 135, states the "GW3" mark appears on Mauser P.08: possibly a pattern gun retained by 'Gewehrsall Nr.3' (third gun assembly shop) of the Oberndorf factory.
- Jan Still, on Pg.203 of his Weimar & Early Nazi Lugers book, advances Starting in late 1934 and continuing until 1942 the German Army received new manufactured Mauser military code Lugers,(S/42,42,byf code). In spite of this inflow of new Lugers, a variety of Weimar or Imperial era Lugers from storage remained in service or were recalled to Army service during the Nazi era. The most common indication of Nazi use is a replacement barrel or matched magazine with Nazi parts or acceptance markings....... An estimated additional 5000 Lugers were recalled to service from storage. Parenthetically, the 1934 holster lends superficial evidence to this rework likely occurring in 1934-1935. If a "GW3" acceptance mark appears on the barrel, this would lend further credence to the statements above. If present, this Inspector's mark would appear on the top left of the barrel (about 10-11 o'clock) at the rear where the barrel screws into the receiver.
- The "K" you mention underneath the removable side plate could indicate the year 1934 or, more likely, was a sub-assembly worker's stamp indicating his work had been performed.
- John, if any other markings are found on the mag's, it would also help establish additional clues for this piece. For instance, the wood bottom mag is likely the original, Imperial era, matching magazine to this example. The presence or absence of inspector's marks, "b" suffix letter, numerals, size/style of the "619", etc, can all add/subtract to this conclusion. What do you find? One matching mag adds value to this example. This is the "good" news.
- Troublesome, with this example, are at least two anomolies as mentioned:

• The barrel proof mark you report, "like those of 49-51 without the letter", indicates a SE/swastika test proof which was not used until after 1939. Either you have a late Nazi rework or the barrel may be a third (or subsequent) barrel added to this example at some later time not contemporary to the "GW3" rework. Again the barrel's acceptance mark would provide some indication.
• The sear bar's numeric '97' does not match the serial number of the pistol. IMO, it is unlikely GW3 would have replaced the sear bar without removing a non-matching S/N remnant from a replacement sear. Again IMO, the reworked/replaced sear would have been re-matched numbered or at least marked with the GW3 acceptance. Impetus to replace most sears have to do with making functional/improving the trigger pull. When this occurred is unknown; but, negates this example's originality even as a legitimate 3rd Reich rework.

- Less troublesome is the addition of an unmatched Aluminum bottom mag. It is unclear whether this is a bright, tin colored tube or a blued tube mag. and what acceptance marks/suffix accompany the numeric 6050 on the base(droop E/63, dE154, SE63, etc.). A mismatched mag is all too common in the rigs known today; but, it retains its intrinsic value as a (presumed) WW2 mag. and enhances the completeness of the "rig". Also, if a "takedown", skatekey like, tool accompanies this rig, it would add to the rigs value. The key is normally found in the pouch inside the holster's bucket top. Your 1934 holster probably also provides an extra flap for a pin punch and extra patches to be carried.
- Without hard documentation, the story becomes only an "educated" guess. As to this Rig's value for Insurance purposes, any evaluation from pictures (without seeing the firearm/holster) and true overall condition of the example is frought with hazards....not the least of which is a universe of dissenting opinions. However, IMHO $1500 comes to mind. This is not what it could be sold for (maybe $900 +/- $200) nor what it is worth nor is this to be considered an offer; but, should adequately cover an equivalent replacement's cost at some time in the future. As you have expressed, the sentimental value has already outweighed any nominal amount.
- Trust this illuminates some provenience of this example.
Respectfully,
Bob

[Ted G]

Thanks much Hugh and Bob. After reading your posts I took another look and sure enough Bob there is another mark on the barrel about 10 o-clock. Don't know why I missed it the first time but it is real small and my eyes are lets say not perfect.

Here is a shot of the SE on the right side.

Bob here are the mags. there is what look like some mark between the 619 and the cross and as you can see the aluminium end has a blued tube.


And finally the holster. Sorry to say it is san skatekey and rod etc. and the leather is fadded on the front side but it is what it is.


I want to thank everyone again. I have learned soooooo much in the past few days my brain in going into overload. Good thing I just retired so I have time to rest during the day.

<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />
Best regareds
Ted

[RockinWR]

John,
I wish to reciprocate to your latest digital pics, by adding the following:

• * IMO the WW1 wood base mag is an original DWM mag. If the "mark" appearing between the 619 and the "+" is the same lower case cursive "b" as found on the forward frame, you have one of this examples matching mags. The "+" indicates this was the reserve or second mag.
  * The blue tube mag was German Army accepted (SE63) about mid 1938 as the reserve mag for a Luger bearing S/N 6050f.
  * Stating the obvious, your 1934 dated holster was made by the firm of Auwaerter & Bubeck, A.G. of Stuttgart. It appears to be in better than your assessed "fair" condition. Lacking broken threads, replaced parts, shoe polish, etc., IMO it would rate VG+.
  * Finally, the barrel was initially made as a replacement spare by Mauser(S/42), accepted to Army approved design Specs. by a Waffenampt(SE63) Inspector sometime during 1937-1939, and proof tested (SE/Swastika) anywhere from early 1939 thru theoretically Spring, 1945. When it was actually attached to this specific pistol remains unknown from the data at hand. S/N "619" was then stamped on the barrel.

As you say, [quote]It is what it is<hr></blockquote>; but this Vet has survived two major 20th Century World wide conflicts quite admirably. Compromised-Yes; but essentially intact after 88.5 years. I won't have all my original parts after that span !!
As to cerebral overload, reflect on her present condition. I conclude:

• * Care earned from all she's served.
  * She still has not told all she knows.

Bob [img]cool.gif[/img]

[Herb]

Ted the suffix letter on the aluminum base mag looks like a 'f' to me. I hope this link works--
http://www.lugerforum.com/lugermarki...xes/suffix.jpg