First Luger

[Parabellus]

Typo! I goofed. The letter in question is 'P'. Sorry, Don. I was trying to get it out before I left work and my brain malfunctioned. I'm looking at it now and it is definitely not an 'S'.

[Don M]

Now we're getting somewhere! This almost certainly is from Plauen, a city of 111,400 in the western part of Saxony. Yours is the only example I know of from this city. I will be especially interested in seeing a good photo of it and would like your permission to use the photo in a future research article on Saxon police unit marks. I will credit you on the photo unless you prefer that I not. You may send me your full name (as you would like it listed) via email to donmaus1@aol.com. Congratulations on having purchased a very unique Luger.

[Parabellus]

All right Don,

This is the furthest I've taken it down so far. I have a lot of pics like this at hi-res from different angles that are too huge to upload unless I crop them to pieces like this 'S.P. P.' shot. I can e-mail to you as many as you say or tell me where to concentrate attention. I appreciate the interest in this weapon you and the others have shown.

Sincerely,
Russell

[Don M]

Russell,

You've been busy! I would like the best photos you have of the S.P.P. mark and the front of the grip strap. If you can avoid the glare from direct light, it will greatly improve the pictures. I have found that taking photos outside on an overcast but bright day works well. It also helps to use a background that is not too light to keep the automatic exposure from underexposing the dark gun.

You can email photos to me at donmaus1@aol.com.

From what I can tell from the photos you have posted, it appears that there is a period between the S and P and that the grip strap has been ground. Do you agree?

[Parabellus]

Busy indeed!

I looked up Plauen, Saxony on the map and realized it was part of East Germany. Is it reasonable to think that a Russian may have taken possession of this Luger after the war? Granted 25 years had passed by then and the weapon in the hands of a Nazi soldier could have found its way all the way Normandy or Africa or anywhere in between where allied troops could have captured it. Can one trace such movement of individual arms?

Anyway, here are some fresh pics of the underside. The front strap is smoother and shinier than the rear strap or the rest of the blue. The gray area around the lower 'P.' appears to be holster wear. There is no period between the 'S' and the 'P.'

Russell

[Don M]

Russell,

On April 16, 1945, U.S. forces of the 87th ID occupied Plauen before driving on to the Czech border. I don't know how long they were there but it is plausible that this pistol was "liberated" by a GI from a Plauen Schupoman before the Russians took over and that it never was in German military or Russian hands. I'm no expert on Russian-captured weapons but I believe that most of them have an "X" marking on them. Perhaps someone more knowledgeable on this will comment.

On the other hand, the removal of the sear safety may indicate otherwise. Since only the police used these devices, it may have been removed as a result of being pressed into German military service. I believe the Russians also removed sear safeties from the P08s they captured. As tacfoley says, "Enjoy wondering."

From looking at these and the other photos you sent me, it appears that the front grip strap either was not ground or else someone did a very good job of it. One more test is to remove one of the grips and look at the inside surface of the front grip strap. If it is a bit "lumpy," it would suggest that there had been a mark stamped on the front.

I am convinced that this gun is a genuine 5-digit commercial DWM -- what Jan Still calls a "20 DWM" in Weimar Lugers, pp. 12-18. It was probably manufactured in 1920 and was sold to the Saxon police, who added military-style serial numbers to the small parts. It was also property-stamped "1920." This makes me feel that the other "1920 dated" pistols listed in my posting above were very likely similar and don't belong in the same category with the others listed. I do feel the "1921 dated" Lugers with serial numbers 8XXXX and 8XXXXa are anomalies and the puzzle is unsolved for them.

[Parabellus]

Took it to the pistol range this afternoon. My son and I put 100 rounds through it. It performed as well as any semi-automatic pistol we have tried out so far. This means it jammed a few times and also failed to eject at least twice. I guess I got spoiled by the M-14 in the Army; it fired thousands of rounds with flawless performance. Think I'll get one someday. Another thing is that the new magazines' knobs apparently failed several times to engage the lock after the final round so the breech closed. That said, the Luger is accurate and a joy to shoot. Think I'll get an Arty next.

TAC & Don,

Thanks for the history lessons guys. You have given me much more information than I had expected. I am enjoying this very much...including the wondering.

Russell

[Parabellus]

The inside of the grip strap shows only magazine ware; it does not look or feel bumpy. What would grinding of the strap reveal? I'm guessing it would have been done to remove old markings.

Does the fact that this was produced as a 'commercial' Luger before being sold to the police and then possibly used in the military diminish its value? Can you now give me a ballpark estimate of the value?

Besides the 7.62mm NATO ammo used in the M-14 and M-60 is there a 7.62mm that fits any handguns? I have seen the ads in G-A for 7.62mm Lugers discussed in other threads.

How do I release a cocked empty Luger to avoid dry-firing? Can or should it be un-cocked while 'geladen'? What is the nature of the risk of breaking the striker when dry-firing? Is it similar to racing an engine in neutral, i.e. it needs a load to push against?

Can or should the toggle be disassembled at the toggle grips? Clearly I need a special punch tool in order to remove the tiny extractor pin.

Russell

[Don M]

Russell,

Thanks for checking the inside of the grip strap. Based on all this info, I don't believe there was an earlier Saxon State Police mark on this pistol.

[Dwight Gruber]

Does the fact that this was produced as a 'commercial' Luger before being sold to the police and then possibly used in the military diminish its value?

Not really. As a five-digit commercial Luger it is, not rare perhaps, but certainly much less common than a WWI or WWII military Luger. As a property-marked police Luger it falls within that particular variation. There are collectors of commercial Lugers who may not be interested in it because itis not purely a commercia example; there are collectors of Police Lugers who would be interested in it in its police aspect, who would not consider buying a plain commercial Luger at any price. De gustibus no est disputandum.

Besides the 7.62mm NATO ammo used in the M-14 and M-60 is there a 7.62mm that fits any handguns? I have seen the in G-A ads for 7.62mm Lugers discussed in other threads.

The original cartridge for the Luger pistol was cal. 7.65mm Parabellum. There are a number of 7.62mm pistol cartridges, either nominal or named; the Luger has not been chambered for them. Don't confuse these with rifle cartridges.

How do I release a cocked empty Luger to avoid dry-firing? Can or should it be un-cocked while 'geladen'?

A Luger should never be de-cocked with a round in the chamber!!

With the gun safely unloaded, pull back the toggle and slowly let it come back to battery. At some point, roughly 1/4 inch from closure, you will feel a 'catch' or an increase in resistance as the sear engages the striker and holds it in position to be cocked. At this point depress the trigger; the sear will come out of engagement and the firing pin will continue forward with the breechblock. The technique is a bit of a trick; the exact point, amount of resistance, and amount of trigger pull necessary varies a bit from gun to gun. Once you get the hang of it, it will become second nature.

The breechblock continues forward with the firing-pin tip protruding through the breech face; if there is a cartridge in the chamber it can be touched off.

What is the nature of the risk of breaking the striker when dry-firing? Is it similar to racing an engine in neutral, i.e. it needs a load to push against?

The short answer is, yes. Dry-firing is a solid metal-to-metal contact of the striker with the breechblock, a particularly egregious battering of two metal parts. Your Luger is more than 85 years old, much closer to the end of its operational lifetime than the beginnig. A broken numbered part will reduce the value of your Luger substantially.

Can or should the toggle be disassembled at the toggle grips? Clearly I need a special punch tool in order to remove the tiny extractor pin.

Removing the little pin which retains the certer toggle pin is tricky, and can result in bending or breaking it. If there is no pressing need for a repair, best not to mess with it.

--Dwight

[Parabellus]

Once again I wish to thank Dwight and Don and all the contributors who have answered my questions and helped me figure out what questions to ask. I hope to add an Artillery Luger, a Navy Luger, and maybe a Luger carbine someday. I'll be reading the Forum for guidance and inspiration and will probably pop up again soon to pick your brains.

With admiration,
Russell