Help Identifying German Proof Marks

schultzie82 · 05-10-2012, 02:20 PM

I have a Luger with a few proof marks that I need help identifying if anyone could. I have attached pictures to show the proof marks. Besides what the pictures have in them this pistol also has 8.83 stamped on the barrel as well as S/42 on the top of the pistol. I know it means Mauser was the manufacturer and it was made specifically for the German Military. Also I know the 8.83 is the ID of the bore which would be 8.83mm. Is that a .380 or 9mm? Finally what is the best way to clean this pistol without damaging it? I was going to just wipe it down with gun oil. Any help identifying the stampings on this pistol would be greatly appreciated. If you would like more or better pictures let me know. Thank you very much! Also under the two sybols on the side of the pistol is the number 63 any ideas what it means?

DavidJayUden · 05-10-2012, 03:09 PM

Check Youtube for disassembly videos, using great care when lifting the left grip panel. Clean and light oil is fine, no oil where it will soak into the wood grips. I'll let others comment on proof nmarks, but he magazines look to be "boosted" or "force-matched" to me. More pictures would be nice.
dju

schultzie82 · 05-10-2012, 03:30 PM

Thanks for the cleaning tip I will look into it. What makes you think this clip is boosted? I am just curious about it. Thanks for you help if there are any specific picture you would like to see of this pistol please let me know other than that here are a few more. Any idea where I could find an owners manual or if they even made them in 1937? Thanks again.

alanint · 05-10-2012, 04:34 PM

The magazine is "boosted" because at the very least the last two numbers, it not all, have been overstamped to match the gun. You can also see where the magazine bottom has been sanded down to try and make a clean job of it. Unfortunately, the faker did not know enough about Lugers to realize that the Letter Suffix is part of the pistol's serial number and these do not match. Your pistol shows a "T" suffix and your magazine shows a "C" suffix. Thus, it is not matching to the gun and now worth less than if someone had just left it alone.

schultzie82 · 05-10-2012, 05:29 PM

What exactly does the "T" suffix mean? Any idea on the proof markings or the 63 below the proof marks on the pistol? Thanks for the help.

mrerick · 05-10-2012, 06:24 PM

Hi Matthew, and welcome to the forum.

The "t" is part of the serial number of your pistol. Every 10,000 pistols, (as they went from 1 to 10000) the suffix letter changed. S/N 10000s was followed by S/N 1t.

The proof marks on the right side of the Luger's receiver are the result of proofing the Luger with a high pressure round and overall inspections by the Weimar military weapons inspection office accepting the pistol. The number "63" refers to a specific inspector.

Your Mauser manufactured pistol (made in 1937) has a frame with the Mauser "hump" at the rear. That hump was introduced progressively during that year.

There were military manuals published by the Germans during the war. You can find modern scans of Luger manuals online.

There are now good reference books that can tell you a great deal about your Luger. Look at the simpsonsltd.com website for books like "The Mauser Parabellum".

Your Luger looks collectable to me. How did you come by it? If it has all matching parts, it may not be a good idea to shoot it. Be very careful when you disassemble it. As mentioned earlier it's easy to break a grip or gall the grip screws...

Marc

alanint · 05-10-2012, 06:27 PM

The number "1" on the top may indicate it is a Police reworked magazine.

schultzie82 · 05-10-2012, 10:30 PM

Marc,
Thank you for the information it helped out alot. I just wanted to clarify the path of travel of this pistol with ya. First Mauser made the pistol and shipped it to Weimar Military Weapons office for acceptance and inspection then issued to the german army is that correct? This pistol belongs to my grandmother, it was passed down from my great grandfather who took it as payment from his nephew for services rendered. My great uncle brought it back from Germany when he returned home from the World War. This is such a large peice of history that shooting it or saleing it would be completely out of the question for me. What would you put a value of on this pistol? I am very interested about this magazine do you think the Germans took it from another pistol, change the serial number then turned around and put it back into use or do you think this magazine is not authentic? If it is a real magazine what is the proof mark on the bottom of it? Yes all serial numbers do match!

schultzie82 · 05-10-2012, 10:50 PM

Alaint,
Could you be more specific in what you are talking about I don't see a 1 on the clip anywhere? Thanks

alanint · 05-10-2012, 10:56 PM

Perhaps I am misinterpreting a scratch at the top of the base as a number one. The magazine is real. It is an early model that is stamped and folded, rather than extruded. The base has a proper Eagle over 63, (e/63) acceptance stamp. The "+" indicates it was the spare magazine for a pistol made in the "C" block of a particular production run. The original serial numbers have been removed and it has been re stamped to "match" the gun.

If it did have a number 1 at the top of the base, it might have been issued to the Weimar police, but since your gun does not exhibit any typical police characteristics, it is doubtful. (The police used "1" and "2" to indicate primary and spare magazine, versus the Army's no mark on primary and a "+" on the spare magazine).
HTH

schultzie82 · 05-11-2012, 12:42 AM

In anyone's best guess what organization would have used this pistol? Any guesses on a value of this pistol?

Thank you all very much with all the good information I have compiled and recorded down all the information that you all have shared with me.

CJS57 · 05-11-2012, 07:05 AM

It would go for $1800 or a little more on Gunbroker.

alanint · 05-11-2012, 09:52 AM

There is no way to tell where the pistol was issued or used, since it has no unusual marks to help with this. Given its condition, it is unlikely it was on the front lines but rather issued to a staff officer or NCO.

mrerick · 05-11-2012, 10:30 AM

Matthew,

The weapons inspection was generally done at the factory. The government office put an inspector in charge (who was identified by the number). The inspector had a small staff of people working for him that did the actual testing.

Mauser also had their own inspectors working along the manufacturing line as the process proceeded to a finished and proofed pistol. You may see a very small rounded "WR" stamp on internal parts surfaces. Before this unified factory inspection mark was used, quality control employees had their own personal dies.

If you were looking for a value for insurance purposes, you should use a retail value like the pricing at simpsonltd.com for a similar Luger in similar condition.

Marc

schultzie82 · 05-12-2012, 09:28 AM

Thank you everyone for the information! Everyone made this process painless for me I appreciate all your help and thoughts. Thanks again!

05-10-2012, 02:20 PM	#1
schultzie82 User Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 7 Thanks: 8 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Help Identifying German Proof Marks I have a Luger with a few proof marks that I need help identifying if anyone could. I have attached pictures to show the proof marks. Besides what the pictures have in them this pistol also has 8.83 stamped on the barrel as well as S/42 on the top of the pistol. I know it means Mauser was the manufacturer and it was made specifically for the German Military. Also I know the 8.83 is the ID of the bore which would be 8.83mm. Is that a .380 or 9mm? Finally what is the best way to clean this pistol without damaging it? I was going to just wipe it down with gun oil. Any help identifying the stampings on this pistol would be greatly appreciated. If you would like more or better pictures let me know. Thank you very much! Also under the two sybols on the side of the pistol is the number 63 any ideas what it means? Attached Thumbnails Last edited by schultzie82; 05-10-2012 at 03:22 PM.

05-10-2012, 03:30 PM	#3
schultzie82 User Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 7 Thanks: 8 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks for the cleaning tip I will look into it. What makes you think this clip is boosted? I am just curious about it. Thanks for you help if there are any specific picture you would like to see of this pistol please let me know other than that here are a few more. Any idea where I could find an owners manual or if they even made them in 1937? Thanks again. Attached Thumbnails

05-10-2012, 06:24 PM	#6
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,907 Thanks: 1,374 Thanked 3,108 Times in 1,509 Posts	Hi Matthew, and welcome to the forum. The "t" is part of the serial number of your pistol. Every 10,000 pistols, (as they went from 1 to 10000) the suffix letter changed. S/N 10000s was followed by S/N 1t. The proof marks on the right side of the Luger's receiver are the result of proofing the Luger with a high pressure round and overall inspections by the Weimar military weapons inspection office accepting the pistol. The number "63" refers to a specific inspector. Your Mauser manufactured pistol (made in 1937) has a frame with the Mauser "hump" at the rear. That hump was introduced progressively during that year. There were military manuals published by the Germans during the war. You can find modern scans of Luger manuals online. There are now good reference books that can tell you a great deal about your Luger. Look at the simpsonsltd.com website for books like "The Mauser Parabellum". Your Luger looks collectable to me. How did you come by it? If it has all matching parts, it may not be a good idea to shoot it. Be very careful when you disassemble it. As mentioned earlier it's easy to break a grip or gall the grip screws... Marc __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

05-11-2012, 10:30 AM	#14
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,907 Thanks: 1,374 Thanked 3,108 Times in 1,509 Posts	Matthew, The weapons inspection was generally done at the factory. The government office put an inspector in charge (who was identified by the number). The inspector had a small staff of people working for him that did the actual testing. Mauser also had their own inspectors working along the manufacturing line as the process proceeded to a finished and proofed pistol. You may see a very small rounded "WR" stamp on internal parts surfaces. Before this unified factory inspection mark was used, quality control employees had their own personal dies. If you were looking for a value for insurance purposes, you should use a retail value like the pricing at simpsonltd.com for a similar Luger in similar condition. Marc __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

05-10-2012, 03:09 PM	#2
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	Check Youtube for disassembly videos, using great care when lifting the left grip panel. Clean and light oil is fine, no oil where it will soak into the wood grips. I'll let others comment on proof nmarks, but he magazines look to be "boosted" or "force-matched" to me. More pictures would be nice. dju

05-10-2012, 04:34 PM	#4
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	The magazine is "boosted" because at the very least the last two numbers, it not all, have been overstamped to match the gun. You can also see where the magazine bottom has been sanded down to try and make a clean job of it. Unfortunately, the faker did not know enough about Lugers to realize that the Letter Suffix is part of the pistol's serial number and these do not match. Your pistol shows a "T" suffix and your magazine shows a "C" suffix. Thus, it is not matching to the gun and now worth less than if someone had just left it alone.

05-10-2012, 05:29 PM	#5
schultzie82 User Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 7 Thanks: 8 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	What exactly does the "T" suffix mean? Any idea on the proof markings or the 63 below the proof marks on the pistol? Thanks for the help.

05-10-2012, 06:27 PM	#7
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	The number "1" on the top may indicate it is a Police reworked magazine.

05-10-2012, 10:30 PM	#8
schultzie82 User Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 7 Thanks: 8 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Marc, Thank you for the information it helped out alot. I just wanted to clarify the path of travel of this pistol with ya. First Mauser made the pistol and shipped it to Weimar Military Weapons office for acceptance and inspection then issued to the german army is that correct? This pistol belongs to my grandmother, it was passed down from my great grandfather who took it as payment from his nephew for services rendered. My great uncle brought it back from Germany when he returned home from the World War. This is such a large peice of history that shooting it or saleing it would be completely out of the question for me. What would you put a value of on this pistol? I am very interested about this magazine do you think the Germans took it from another pistol, change the serial number then turned around and put it back into use or do you think this magazine is not authentic? If it is a real magazine what is the proof mark on the bottom of it? Yes all serial numbers do match!

05-10-2012, 10:50 PM	#9
schultzie82 User Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 7 Thanks: 8 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Alaint, Could you be more specific in what you are talking about I don't see a 1 on the clip anywhere? Thanks

05-10-2012, 10:56 PM	#10
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	Perhaps I am misinterpreting a scratch at the top of the base as a number one. The magazine is real. It is an early model that is stamped and folded, rather than extruded. The base has a proper Eagle over 63, (e/63) acceptance stamp. The "+" indicates it was the spare magazine for a pistol made in the "C" block of a particular production run. The original serial numbers have been removed and it has been re stamped to "match" the gun. If it did have a number 1 at the top of the base, it might have been issued to the Weimar police, but since your gun does not exhibit any typical police characteristics, it is doubtful. (The police used "1" and "2" to indicate primary and spare magazine, versus the Army's no mark on primary and a "+" on the spare magazine). HTH

05-11-2012, 12:42 AM	#11
schultzie82 User Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 7 Thanks: 8 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	In anyone's best guess what organization would have used this pistol? Any guesses on a value of this pistol? Thank you all very much with all the good information I have compiled and recorded down all the information that you all have shared with me.

05-11-2012, 07:05 AM	#12
CJS57 User Join Date: Nov 2011 Posts: 224 Thanks: 0 Thanked 81 Times in 41 Posts	It would go for $1800 or a little more on Gunbroker.

05-11-2012, 09:52 AM	#13
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	There is no way to tell where the pistol was issued or used, since it has no unusual marks to help with this. Given its condition, it is unlikely it was on the front lines but rather issued to a staff officer or NCO.

05-12-2012, 09:28 AM	#15
schultzie82 User Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 7 Thanks: 8 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thank you everyone for the information! Everyone made this process painless for me I appreciate all your help and thoughts. Thanks again!