Some eye candy

Edmond , DCB shooting · 11-29-2009, 10:15 AM

Christmas is nearing.

Jasta2 · 11-29-2009, 10:59 AM

You can add me to your Christmas gift list!! Beautiful. I am not that advanced with Lugers, could you post some details? I take it is a Bulgarian presntation Luger?? But I am most likely way off.
Thanks,Bill

Edmond , DCB shooting · 11-29-2009, 12:09 PM

You are welcome. It is one of the 250 commemorative "Russian" pistols made by Mauser on the swiss machinery they had acquired in the 70's. It is explained in some threads on these forums how Mauser restarted production mainly for distribution by Interarms in USA.

PS: send CC details, there is a membership fee to be on my Christmas gift list (unless you are female and convincing enough to get a discount LOL)

Vlim · 11-29-2009, 12:28 PM

Well, not made on Swiss machinery, but a nice example of a Commemorative Mauser Parabellum nonetheless! Proofed in Ulm, so basically destined for the European market, this one.

Number 112 of 250?

Edmond , DCB shooting · 11-29-2009, 12:59 PM

Yes, 112.

Wasn't the machinery purchased from Switzerland by Mauser?

mauro · 11-29-2009, 01:02 PM

Nice gun!!
I like it, I have the Bulgarian commemorative that was usually sold "in pair" with the Russian one.

I really like it.

Cheers,
Mauro

Vlim · 11-29-2009, 01:06 PM

Mauser bought some jigs, the technical drawings and the quality control gauges.

The jigs were useless, the technical drawings were used in prototyping and then redone. Only the QA gauges saw use, although a number of them had to be altered because of differences in detail design. So although the Mauser Parabellum is unmistakingly based on the Swiss 06/29, it was not made on the same machinery.

I noticed that the pistol has a MecGar magazine with plastic bottom in it.
IIRC they were sold with either the normal Mauser magazines, or the commemorative version with a wood bottom piece.

Edmond , DCB shooting · 11-29-2009, 01:28 PM

Thank you for clearing this point.

Ice · 11-29-2009, 01:42 PM

Beautiful Luger. Wish I had one under my Christmas tree. Glad you do!

Charlie

drbuster · 11-29-2009, 02:54 PM

Gadzooks, even the "enlightened" comtemporary Mauser technicians of the 1970's made the same "mistake" as their grand-ancestors in marking the safety area in BULGARIAN! After all the brouhaha on both forums about this issue, I showed this marking to two separate Russian native persons who both proclaimed independently that this word is the SAME in BOTH Russian and Bulgarian! (I hope I don't re-muddy the waters!)

Edmond , DCB shooting · 11-29-2009, 04:31 PM

uh?

suum cuique · 11-29-2009, 07:31 PM

I have a problem with the "s" .
In the middle of a word this kind of "s" was not used.
"Kaiserreich" and "Pistole"

Enclosed is a printed example of old German lettering:

If a word at the beginning of a sentence is beginning with a capital "S", then a rounded normal "S" is used, like: Schriftbeispiel.
If a word does not begin with a capital-"S", then a long "s" is used like in "seiner".
A "s' in the middle of a word, like Beispiel is a long "S", looks like a "f"
2nd example: Was ist Aufklarung.
The "s" in Was is a normal "S" because it is at the end of the word, the "s" is not a log "S" because the "S" is in the middle of the word.
There are some exeptions when the "S" in the middle of a word is written with a normal "S" like in Ausgang.
Because it is a word connected by two words" Aus and Gang
I have my doubts that the engraving is original, because this kind of mistake is done by a lot of modern engraver.

Another example: Deutschland

In old lettering the "S" must be a long "S" looking like
DeutIchland not Deutschland.

Please see my 2nd attachement, a photo of the Luger army manual. As you can see, the word "Pistole" is written correctly with the long "s", not the regular "s".
Why should an engraving have a wrong "s" ???

drbuster · 11-29-2009, 08:26 PM

Edmund, could you show a view of the chamber. I would like to see if crossed Mosin-Nagant rifles are stamped there.

Norme · 11-29-2009, 08:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drbuster

Gadzooks, even the "enlightened" comtemporary Mauser technicians of the 1970's made the same "mistake" as their grand-ancestors in marking the safety area in BULGARIAN! After all the brouhaha on both forums about this issue, I showed this marking to two separate Russian native persons who both proclaimed independently that this word is the SAME in BOTH Russian and Bulgarian! (I hope I don't re-muddy the waters!)

This seems like deja vu all over again! I hope Albert or Pavlov don't see this thread. Norm

Ron Wood · 11-29-2009, 09:51 PM

Andy,
The "s" in the middle of the "Russland" is a "double s", and is correct.

suum cuique · 11-29-2009, 10:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ron Wood

Andy,
The "s" in the middle of the "Russland" is a "double s", and is correct.

The lettering of the word "Russland" is correct.
But:
There was not a double-"s" in the word "Russland" except nowadays, it should be a "scharfes S", or called "sz" on old items and books.
The "scharfes S" (hot s), also called the "sz", it is a combination of a "s" and a "z". Like in Fuss (foot), Fass (barrel), Kuss (kiss), Schuss (shot), Hass (hatred).
I can't type the correct "sz", because I have an American keyboard.

A few years ago they changed the German language. (About 2001?)
Nowadays they write Russland, Kuss, Fass, Schuss, Hass with double-s "ss", they would not do this in the past, only if they could not use the correct lettering.
You can see the combination of a "s" and a "z" in the word "Entschliessung" (sorry, I have to use the double-SS because of my keyboard)
They changed a lot of words to the use of double-s "ss", but not all. (Greetings) Gruesse, (Feet) Fuesse, (Street) Strasse, must be still written with the "schafes-s" or called "sz".

But there was /is a different between the German-laguage in Germany and Austria and the German-language in Switzerland. As far I know, the Swiss-German-language does not use the "scharfes-s" or called "sz".

But the misspelling of the "s" in the middle of a word is a wide spread mistake by producer of faked German militaria.

Ron Wood · 11-30-2009, 12:31 AM

The “scharfes S” is called “Eszett “ in German and depending upon its location with respect to vowels on either side or at the end of a word can represent “sz” or “ss”. The letter on the Russian replica Luger is the old Fraktur letter whereas the more modern letter resembles the lower case Greek letter beta. Prior to the spelling reform of 1996, place names such as Russland would have used the Eszett for the double s. Subsequent to that date it would be spelled "Russland" as we do now. Given the 1906 date of the Luger that the replica represents, I believe the Fraktur Eszett would be correct. But as usual, I could be wrong.

Edmond , DCB shooting · 11-30-2009, 03:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drbuster

Edmund, could you show a view of the chamber. I would like to see if crossed Mosin-Nagant rifles are stamped there.

Vlim · 11-30-2009, 12:26 PM

The Postwar Mauser Parabellum chamber markings were etched, not stamped, FWIW.

suum cuique · 11-30-2009, 03:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ron Wood

The “scharfes S” is called “Eszett “ in German and depending upon its location with respect to vowels on either side or at the end of a word can represent “sz” or “ss”. The letter on the Russian replica Luger is the old Fraktur letter whereas the more modern letter resembles the lower case Greek letter beta. Prior to the spelling reform of 1996, place names such as Russland would have used the Eszett for the double s. Subsequent to that date it would be spelled "Russland" as we do now. Given the 1906 date of the Luger that the replica represents, I believe the Fraktur Eszett would be correct. But as usual, I could be wrong.

Ron, you are right, the "Eszett" is of course correct, but I have a problem with the "s" in the words Kaiserreich" and "Pistole".
The engraver used a regular rounded "s" instead of the long "s" which should look a littlebit like a "f"
As seen on the Luger manual.

11-29-2009, 10:15 AM	#1
Edmond , DCB shooting User Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: FRANCE Posts: 53 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Some eye candy Christmas is nearing. __________________ Shoot'in by DCB

11-29-2009, 12:09 PM	#3
Edmond , DCB shooting User Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: FRANCE Posts: 53 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	You are welcome. It is one of the 250 commemorative "Russian" pistols made by Mauser on the swiss machinery they had acquired in the 70's. It is explained in some threads on these forums how Mauser restarted production mainly for distribution by Interarms in USA. PS: send CC details, there is a membership fee to be on my Christmas gift list (unless you are female and convincing enough to get a discount LOL) __________________ Shoot'in by DCB

11-29-2009, 12:59 PM	#5
Edmond , DCB shooting User Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: FRANCE Posts: 53 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Yes, 112. Wasn't the machinery purchased from Switzerland by Mauser? __________________ Shoot'in by DCB

11-29-2009, 01:02 PM	#6
mauro FIREARM HISTORIAN AND AUT Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Belgium Posts: 1,535 Thanks: 106 Thanked 349 Times in 129 Posts	Nice gun!! I like it, I have the Bulgarian commemorative that was usually sold "in pair" with the Russian one. I really like it. Cheers, Mauro __________________ Mauro Baudino - www.lugerlp08.com www.paul-mauser-archive.com Mauser Company and Firearm Historian - Mauser Parabellum Certification Service.

11-29-2009, 01:28 PM	#8
Edmond , DCB shooting User Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: FRANCE Posts: 53 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thank you for clearing this point. __________________ Shoot'in by DCB

11-29-2009, 10:59 AM	#2
Jasta2 User Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Lakeland, Fl. Posts: 514 Thanks: 349 Thanked 101 Times in 52 Posts	You can add me to your Christmas gift list!! Beautiful. I am not that advanced with Lugers, could you post some details? I take it is a Bulgarian presntation Luger?? But I am most likely way off. Thanks,Bill

11-29-2009, 12:28 PM	#4
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,031 Thanks: 1,018 Thanked 3,873 Times in 1,184 Posts	Well, not made on Swiss machinery, but a nice example of a Commemorative Mauser Parabellum nonetheless! Proofed in Ulm, so basically destined for the European market, this one. Number 112 of 250?

11-29-2009, 01:06 PM	#7
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,031 Thanks: 1,018 Thanked 3,873 Times in 1,184 Posts	Mauser bought some jigs, the technical drawings and the quality control gauges. The jigs were useless, the technical drawings were used in prototyping and then redone. Only the QA gauges saw use, although a number of them had to be altered because of differences in detail design. So although the Mauser Parabellum is unmistakingly based on the Swiss 06/29, it was not made on the same machinery. I noticed that the pistol has a MecGar magazine with plastic bottom in it. IIRC they were sold with either the normal Mauser magazines, or the commemorative version with a wood bottom piece.

11-29-2009, 01:42 PM	#9
Ice User Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 552 Thanks: 13 Thanked 69 Times in 57 Posts	Beautiful Luger. Wish I had one under my Christmas tree. Glad you do! Charlie

11-29-2009, 02:54 PM	#10
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	Gadzooks, even the "enlightened" comtemporary Mauser technicians of the 1970's made the same "mistake" as their grand-ancestors in marking the safety area in BULGARIAN! After all the brouhaha on both forums about this issue, I showed this marking to two separate Russian native persons who both proclaimed independently that this word is the SAME in BOTH Russian and Bulgarian! (I hope I don't re-muddy the waters!)

11-29-2009, 04:31 PM	#11
Edmond , DCB shooting User Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: FRANCE Posts: 53 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	uh? __________________ Shoot'in by DCB

11-29-2009, 07:31 PM	#12
suum cuique User Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: MD / Currently about 9000 klicks east of the Potomac Posts: 497 Thanks: 100 Thanked 47 Times in 35 Posts	incorrect lettering? I have a problem with the "s" . In the middle of a word this kind of "s" was not used. "Kaiserreich" and "Pistole" Enclosed is a printed example of old German lettering: If a word at the beginning of a sentence is beginning with a capital "S", then a rounded normal "S" is used, like: Schriftbeispiel. If a word does not begin with a capital-"S", then a long "s" is used like in "seiner". A "s' in the middle of a word, like Beispiel is a long "S", looks like a "f" 2nd example: Was ist Aufklarung. The "s" in Was is a normal "S" because it is at the end of the word, the "s" is not a log "S" because the "S" is in the middle of the word. There are some exeptions when the "S" in the middle of a word is written with a normal "S" like in Ausgang. Because it is a word connected by two words" Aus and Gang I have my doubts that the engraving is original, because this kind of mistake is done by a lot of modern engraver. Another example: Deutschland In old lettering the "S" must be a long "S" looking like DeutIchland not Deutschland. Please see my 2nd attachement, a photo of the Luger army manual. As you can see, the word "Pistole" is written correctly with the long "s", not the regular "s". Why should an engraving have a wrong "s" ??? Attached Thumbnails __________________ Regards, Andy There's No Place Like Home (Wizard Of Oz)

11-29-2009, 08:26 PM	#13
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	Edmund, could you show a view of the chamber. I would like to see if crossed Mosin-Nagant rifles are stamped there.

11-29-2009, 09:51 PM	#15
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,986 Thanks: 1,065 Thanked 5,088 Times in 1,674 Posts	Andy, The "s" in the middle of the "Russland" is a "double s", and is correct. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

11-30-2009, 12:31 AM	#17
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,986 Thanks: 1,065 Thanked 5,088 Times in 1,674 Posts	The “scharfes S” is called “Eszett “ in German and depending upon its location with respect to vowels on either side or at the end of a word can represent “sz” or “ss”. The letter on the Russian replica Luger is the old Fraktur letter whereas the more modern letter resembles the lower case Greek letter beta. Prior to the spelling reform of 1996, place names such as Russland would have used the Eszett for the double s. Subsequent to that date it would be spelled "Russland" as we do now. Given the 1906 date of the Luger that the replica represents, I believe the Fraktur Eszett would be correct. But as usual, I could be wrong. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

11-30-2009, 12:26 PM	#19
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,031 Thanks: 1,018 Thanked 3,873 Times in 1,184 Posts	The Postwar Mauser Parabellum chamber markings were etched, not stamped, FWIW.