A&F Luger in AZ State

[Pete Ebbink]

Looks like this one is SN 5249i with an asking price of $ 12,000 USD :

http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/co...swissluger.jsp



Why a 2-line inscription on a 7,65 mm gun...???...



Is the left "arm" of the Swiss cross a bit too long...???...


In the Charles Kenyon article about the A&F Lugers for "The Gun Report" magazine of April 1995 on page 47 (actually a 2-part article), Kenyon surmises for the A&F Lugers a "...serial range; approximately 2650i - 3200i, although not sequential reflects a lot purchase from factory inventory stores...".

Author Vittorio Bobba in his large book on Swiss Lugers on page 122 surmises a SN range for these guns from 2000-3500i.

Only 100 of these A&F guns are thought to exist; 49 in 9 mm (with a 2-line barrel inscription) and 51 in 7,65 mm (with a 1-line barrel inscription).

So why do we see this AZ gun with a SN of 5259i...???...

Also in the recent Greg Martin auction in SF, they had offered two other A&F Lugers with SN's of 5366i and 5553i...

http://68.167.203.107:8050/FMPro?-db...12589638&-Find

http://68.167.203.107:8050/FMPro?-db...12589526&-Find

On the other hand, the folks at FGS have this SN 28xxi for sale...which fits, well, within the Kenyon SN range :

http://www.fgsinc.8m.com/images/lug10209.jpg

I suppose one could start with a gun like this SN 2433i (1920's Swiss commercial gun) add the "new" barrel and its A&F enscription and end up with an even "better" forgery of an A&F Luger...???...taking a $ 2000 gun up to a $ 10-12K gun...at least such a modified gun would "fit" into the right SN range Kenyon mentions.

http://www.simpsonltd.com/product_in...oducts_id=1888

[Mauser720]

Pete -

I think the reason the left arm of the cross is longer on this specimen is that this was done to indicate that the grips were designed to be used by a left handed shooter. These left handed A&F models are the rarest of the rare.

Mauser720 - Ron

[LugerVern]

In the Multi-National Pistol page 134 & 135 there are two A&Fâ??s one 9mm and one 7.65.
If this reference is correct then we can not draw a conclusion based on the one line or two line inscription.
As it clearly shows and states that just the opposite condition exist ( two lines on the 7.65 and one line 9mm).

The barrel band is of real concern here, this is very hard to get around but lacking cold hard evidence to the contrary all one can say is suspicious.

Of even greater concern is that I believe someone may have acquired the original roll dies for making the inscription. The inscription is as close a match as I can imagine, down two the finest detail. These are two part dies, so some variation between guns should be expected as to placement and we should watch for this, no two guns should be exactly alike.

I can not view the other two A&Fâ??s Pete posted links to, I would love to see pictures of the two AFâ??s on the Greg Martin site for a side by side comparison.

I know the comment about the roll die may be a bit wild for some of you but, do your own research. I will be happy if you prove me wrong. Note the distance between the &-F the size of the M in made and the Z



Vern

[Pete Ebbink]

Vern,

I have sent you two emails this morning with the Greg-Martin A&F photos.

The issue of A&F Luger barrels having 1-line or 2-line inscriptions and their 7,65 mm or 9 mm calibers is quite confusing amongst the writers such as Kenyon, Bobba, Reese, Walter and confusing in my mind as well.

Italian writer and Swiss reseacher Vittorio Bobba even "hints" that the 7,65 mm 1-line guns are the roll died ones from A&F and the 2-line ones might just be fakes...see pages 122-123 in his book.

It is curious that even the "odd" ones on the Greg Martin auction are both in 7,65 mm and have the 1-line inscription.

I certainly like the looks of the offering from FGS...in 7,65 mm and with a 1-line inscription. (Correction : Gun is in 9mm in 4-3/4" length.)

BTW...here is a most curious magazine photo of one of the G-M auction guns...first time I have seen a Swiss cross placed on the metal disk magazine. It seems too big...compared to the size you normally see on the M1929 Bern magazine. The "mechanic" behind the magazine marking even added the "dot" in the center of the cross...in the style of the 1898 B-L pistols' chamber crest...

[Mauser720]

I am able to open both of those first links cited in Pete's posting; however I can not figure out how to post the pictures here so others can see what they look like. It would be so much more helpful if you could see them side by side.

The barrel inscription on the first is more clear than the inscription on the second pistol.

In the first one, it does appear that the "F" is also closer to the "&" just as it it on the Arizona specimen. They both look the same to me.

But the "M" and the "Z" do look quite different to me too, just as Vern has pointed out.

Mauser720 - Ron

[Pete Ebbink]

Barrel from GM # 5553i :



Barrel from GM # 53661 :



Barrel from gun offered by FGS :




Vern,

BTW...I have been taught that the odd "set-back" of the front sight on the barrel band is exactly what one wants to see on an A&F barrel.

These are thought by some to have been made in Switzerland by the Hammerli firm, has this set-back and even has a different lands/grooves pattern in the bore of the barrel.

My "comfort zone" for A&F Lugers is to see the "Made in Switzerland" stamping of a little larger font size as well and usually not on the same line/axis of the A&F stamping.

[Pete Ebbink]

Ron,

About 4-5 years ago when I was first attending the Reno gun show, there was more than 1 occassion when a blank-chambered, grip safety, long-framed 1920's commercial Luger in the 2,xxxi to 3,xxxi SN range were purchased for nearly $ 1600-1800 by a certain dealer and/or and "runners" for dealers...when others just like it but in a higher SN only went for $ 800-900. Finish of the gun did not seem to lower the higher selling price.

I only noted the oddness of the selling price...and at that time could not come up with a reason for it...

[LugerVern]

Thanks Pete for sharing the pictures, for some reason I simply can not access that site no matter what I do.

Well here I am again criticizing someoneâ??s expensive guns. I derive no pleasure from it; I am no expert in spotting fakes, my talent lies mostly in comparing the detail of an original to that of the suspect gun in extreme detail and then comparing that to written documentation.
With that said here is my review of the three 5000 series A&F guns.

All three guns fall outside normal expected serial ranges. To establish precedence the guns need be nearly perfect, they are no where near good enough as you will see below.


The barrel band is too elongated on all three, yes it should be extended but the 3 guns in question are not of the right configuration.

____
To the left of the side frame serial number of 5366 is the remnant of the BP or P proof.

There is obvious file marks on the frame near the side plate and just above the mag release on 5366.
____
The last digit of 5553 (3) has been over stamped with a flat top 3 to make it possible to match up the gun.

The DWM scroll is inconsistent on 5553

The (i) on the frame serial number has been severely botch on 5553

â?? when added together 5553 looks like a parts gun


Both 5553 & 5366 have the unrelieved sear bar, for guns made in 1922 this is unlikely.
____

The safety has been severely messed with on 5249 and is currently broken or disconnected internally; the polished area has been touched up.


IMHO all three 5000 series A&Fâ??s are fakes and should be avoided.

I am still convinced that the original roll die or a near perfect reproduction is being used to create the fakes. There is one other possibility in that a small batch of original barrels may have been located. The barrels do not look properly crowned to me and this may be why they look funny. I would love to measure the overall length.

Thanks

Vern

[Pete Ebbink]

Regarding SN 5366i offered on the Greg Martin auction :

"Ghost" of a "P" on 5366i as Vern as noted...If a "P", then this was some M1906 Swiss Ordnance gun release from service-use by the Military :



File marks Vern mentions on 5366i :



I think the spacing of the 3 and the 6 on the front frame SN 5366i is a bit odd and not done well :

[Pete Ebbink]

Regarding SN 5553i offered on the Greg Martin auction :

SN stamping on the barrel is bothced as well :



Vern's comment about the other SN stamping being botched, as well :



DWM on SN 5553i as Vern commented upon :



"i" that Vern mentions on 5553i front frame stamping :

[Pete Ebbink]

Vern,

I tried to place all the barrel tips together for a photo comparison...I do not have them quite all to the same scale but here is my attempt :

The FGS offering is on top.

Cabelas's gun next from the top.

Greg Martin SN 5633i next.

Greg Martin SN 5553i on the bottom.

[LugerVern]

Thanks Pete for putting the pictures together, you did a good job!
After doing the review I was too disgusted to do it, but your right, the forum members need to see the truth. Even if they disagree it is a good lesson for most.

I learned a few things too and again enjoyed reading Bobba's book.

thanks

Vern

[Pete Ebbink]

Vern,

The Cabelas follks usually are receptive to receiving info. on a gun that they may have on consignment and may not have accurate info. for.

I sent them the Bobba and Kenyon info. about the SN range. I usually hear back from them in a week or so.

In the past, they have pulled a sales offering. when provided with enough info.

The Greg Martin auction house calls their offerings a "rare A&F..."...BUT...then go on to add this wording..

" Very good as refinished, including the barrel. Retaining approximately 96-98% reblued finish with light wear to relief edges. Barrel and some parts changed and renumbered. "

Their ads would be better written using the term "assembly" for their guns, as the Rock Island Auction house folks do from time to time.

Or better yet..."an assembled shooter with suprious A&F markings"...

[Pete Ebbink]

Don't know how I misssed this detail on the Cabelas gun...

[the gunman]

Pete you are truly one of the "Masters" Your eye to detail astounds me. you must have 3 lives to put this much time into all the great research you never seem to stop turning up.
I have been a collector 50+ years . I must say your knowledge puts me to shame.

Richie

[Pete Ebbink]

Richie,

As you may remember, I got my first Luger (from Tom Heller) only 5.5 years ago...

There is much I still have to learn.

I only hope some of my efforts help other new collectors stay out of the "shark tank" when it comes to Lugers in the USA...

The Cabelas gun would certainly be a big mistake for a newer collector with deep pockets.

[A.Mifsin]

Originally posted by Pete Ebbink
Richie,

As you may remember, I got my first Luger (from Tom Heller) only 5.5 years ago...

There is much I still have to learn.

I only hope some of my efforts help other new collectors stay out of the "shark tank" when it comes to Lugers in the USA...

The Cabelas gun would certainly be a big mistake for a newer collector with deep pockets.

I do not collect Swiss Lugers, but boy I sure enjoyed this thread, I learned a lot. Knowlege about any Luger is an asset to have. Thank You All
Alf

[dz]

Pic of an A & F inscription on a luger I have, and I believe it is correct and is the serial number range of Kenyon.

[MFC]

Zim,
Very nice A&F. Is it 30 cal. or 9mm? Wish I had one.
Mike C.

[dz]

It is .30 cal.