Nationalmannschaft Pistolen

Michael Zeleny · 11-06-2010, 11:23 AM

I just won the Kessler lots in these photos:

Quote:

29427 WES Pistole, CH-Ord. Parabellum 29, Kal. 7,65 Para. Nationalmannschaftsmodell mit dickerem, 170mm langem Lauf. S/N 59951 Vergl.: Rutsch, "Faustfeuerwaffen der Eidgenossen", Seite 266ff, mit einer Abbildung genau dieser Pistole.
Sfr. 2500/5000.- siehe Abb. Zustand: neuwertig

29428 WES Pistole, CH-Ord. Parabellum 29, Kal. 7,65 Para. Nationalmannschaftsmodell mit leichtem, 200mm langem Lauf. S/N 65721 Vergl.: Rutsch, "Faustfeuerwaffen der Eidgenossen", Seite 268ff, mit einer Abbildung genau dieser Pistole.
Sfr. 2500/5000.- siehe Abb. Zustand: neuwertig

Heinrich Keller of Frauenfeld, Switzerland, aged 40, used a specially constructed 170mm-barreled 1906/29 7.65mm Luger SN P78108 to win his first international event, the 1949 ISSF competition in Buenos Aires. I would like to make a small batch of Heinrich Keller commemorative replicas (so marked) of Swiss National Match 1929 Parabellum pistols out of ordinary Swiss military issue Parabellums. Does anyone know of 170mm and/or 200mm proofed barrels available for sale in Switzerland?

Ron Wood · 11-06-2010, 11:44 AM

Michael,
Nice acquisitions. Watch out or you will be plagued with requests to adjust trigger levers!

mauro · 11-07-2010, 07:59 AM

Congratulation,
I really like the set!

sheepherder · 11-07-2010, 08:55 AM

Ausgezeichnet!!!

I know it says that 427 & 428 are both 7.65mm...and two different barrel lengths...but the barrel on 427 looks much thicker...Is it just an optical illusion, or is it a "heavy barrel" 7.65mm??? (Or maybe a misprint & actually 9mm???)

Tomathvl · 11-07-2010, 09:42 AM

Michael,
Really nice set!

Anyone know how the trigger lever adjusting tool works since the lever is hardened? Anneal then re-harden or ??????
Tom

Michael Zeleny · 11-07-2010, 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by postino

Ausgezeichnet!!!

I know it says that 427 & 428 are both 7.65mm...and two different barrel lengths...but the barrel on 427 looks much thicker...Is it just an optical illusion, or is it a "heavy barrel" 7.65mm??? (Or maybe a misprint & actually 9mm???)

As noted in the listing, these pistols are illustrated by Horst Rutsch in Faustfeuerwaffen der Eidgenossen, as belonging to a production run of 20 target pieces chambered in 7.65 Para, the rest of which have had their long barrels destroyed since then. These two came out of Rutsch's personal collection.

Michael Zeleny · 11-07-2010, 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tomathvl

Michael,
Really nice set!

Anyone know how the trigger lever adjusting tool works since the lever is hardened? Anneal then re-harden or ??????
Tom

Thank you, Tom.

The trigger lever adjusting tool is meant to be used on the lever either before it has been hardened, or after it has been annealed. I am not sure whether it was meant for unit- or depot-level repairs. I am trying to find out the official repair protocol.

Ron Wood · 11-07-2010, 12:54 PM

Simpson's has had one of these "RICHVORRICHTUNG; WD30-130 der W&F fur den Abzwinkelhebel" for sale for quite some time. They list it as coming with a 20-page instruction manual. Perhaps they would share the protocol with you.

Edmond , DCB shooting · 11-10-2010, 04:51 AM

So, to see them I will need to cross the pond now? Kessler really sold many uncommon pieces of many types these last years. The SIG factory collection auction was awesome. Congratulations, Michaël. I had seen one of these beauties years ago when I shot with SSTP in Switzerland but I had no time to go back there shooting them.
From what I learned there about the adjustment of the trigger lever, only a few Master Gunsmiths were allowed to perform it.

Michael Zeleny · 11-10-2010, 06:02 AM

I bought a couple of forged heavy frame P210-6 pistols from Kessler over the past two years. "The SIG that got away" was sold by Fischer last year, a 1963 P210-5 prototype with fixed sights and a blued 170mm barrel, supposedly one of three ever made. (See Vetter, p. 78.) It's a banned "assault weapon" in California, and nowhere as interesting as the W+F target Parabellums, but that look is the only long barrel P210 that works for me.

Michael Zeleny · 05-05-2012, 03:48 AM

I have uploaded and posted high resolution photos of my W+F National Match 06/29 Parabellums:
http://pics.livejournal.com/larvatus...ational+Match/

http://pics.livejournal.com/larvatus/tags/59951/

http://pics.livejournal.com/larvatus/tags/65721/
Both barrels are numbered 19. Their provenance is Horst Rutsch's collection, as referenced above. The heavy barrel pistol SN 59951 in the top photo looks and feels unfired. The pencil barrel pistol SN 65721 in the bottom photo has had its trigger takeup reduced and its weight adjusted to 2.15kg, as against 2.64kg of the former. It's the most accurate centerfire handgun I've ever shot.

Ben M. · 05-07-2012, 10:49 AM

both are neat guns ! thanks for posting follow-up photos !

John Sabato · 05-07-2012, 04:16 PM

Very nice Michael!

alanint · 05-07-2012, 04:27 PM

Michael, is it the angle of the photograph or are the National Match pistol's magazine releases uncheckered?

Michael Zeleny · 05-07-2012, 04:59 PM

All Swiss 06/29 pistols have smooth magazine release buttons.

11-06-2010, 11:44 AM	#2
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,019 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,173 Times in 1,701 Posts	Michael, Nice acquisitions. Watch out or you will be plagued with requests to adjust trigger levers! __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

11-07-2010, 07:59 AM	#3
mauro FIREARM HISTORIAN AND AUT Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Belgium Posts: 1,535 Thanks: 106 Thanked 349 Times in 129 Posts	Congratulation, I really like the set! __________________ Mauro Baudino - www.lugerlp08.com www.paul-mauser-archive.com Mauser Company and Firearm Historian - Mauser Parabellum Certification Service.

11-07-2010, 08:55 AM	#4
sheepherder Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: ...on the 'ol Erie Canal... Posts: 8,182 Thanks: 1,400 Thanked 4,442 Times in 2,330 Posts	Ausgezeichnet!!! I know it says that 427 & 428 are both 7.65mm...and two different barrel lengths...but the barrel on 427 looks much thicker...Is it just an optical illusion, or is it a "heavy barrel" 7.65mm??? (Or maybe a misprint & actually 9mm???) __________________ I like my coffee the way I like my women... ...Cold and bitter...

11-07-2010, 12:54 PM	#8
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,019 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,173 Times in 1,701 Posts	Simpson's has had one of these "RICHVORRICHTUNG; WD30-130 der W&F fur den Abzwinkelhebel" for sale for quite some time. They list it as coming with a 20-page instruction manual. Perhaps they would share the protocol with you. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

11-10-2010, 04:51 AM	#9
Edmond , DCB shooting User Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: FRANCE Posts: 53 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	So, to see them I will need to cross the pond now? Kessler really sold many uncommon pieces of many types these last years. The SIG factory collection auction was awesome. Congratulations, Michaël. I had seen one of these beauties years ago when I shot with SSTP in Switzerland but I had no time to go back there shooting them. From what I learned there about the adjustment of the trigger lever, only a few Master Gunsmiths were allowed to perform it. __________________ Shoot'in by DCB

11-07-2010, 09:42 AM	#5
Tomathvl User Join Date: May 2004 Location: Milan, IN Posts: 363 Thanks: 3 Thanked 48 Times in 19 Posts	Michael, Really nice set! Anyone know how the trigger lever adjusting tool works since the lever is hardened? Anneal then re-harden or ?????? Tom

11-10-2010, 06:02 AM	#10
Michael Zeleny Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 525 Thanks: 129 Thanked 139 Times in 76 Posts	I bought a couple of forged heavy frame P210-6 pistols from Kessler over the past two years. "The SIG that got away" was sold by Fischer last year, a 1963 P210-5 prototype with fixed sights and a blued 170mm barrel, supposedly one of three ever made. (See Vetter, p. 78.) It's a banned "assault weapon" in California, and nowhere as interesting as the W+F target Parabellums, but that look is the only long barrel P210 that works for me. __________________ Michael Zeleny@post.harvard.edu -- http://larvatus.livejournal.com/ -- 7576 Willow Glen Road, Los Angeles, CA 90046 -- 323.363.1860 All of old. Nothing else ever. Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better. -- Samuel Beckett

05-05-2012, 03:48 AM	#11
Michael Zeleny Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 525 Thanks: 129 Thanked 139 Times in 76 Posts	I have uploaded and posted high resolution photos of my W+F National Match 06/29 Parabellums: http://pics.livejournal.com/larvatus...ational+Match/ http://pics.livejournal.com/larvatus/tags/59951/ http://pics.livejournal.com/larvatus/tags/65721/ Both barrels are numbered 19. Their provenance is Horst Rutsch's collection, as referenced above. The heavy barrel pistol SN 59951 in the top photo looks and feels unfired. The pencil barrel pistol SN 65721 in the bottom photo has had its trigger takeup reduced and its weight adjusted to 2.15kg, as against 2.64kg of the former. It's the most accurate centerfire handgun I've ever shot. __________________ Michael Zeleny@post.harvard.edu -- http://larvatus.livejournal.com/ -- 7576 Willow Glen Road, Los Angeles, CA 90046 -- 323.363.1860 All of old. Nothing else ever. Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better. -- Samuel Beckett Last edited by Michael Zeleny; 05-05-2012 at 11:49 PM. Reason: spelling correction

05-07-2012, 10:49 AM	#12
Ben M. User Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Retired to Naples, FL. Posts: 488 Thanks: 87 Thanked 123 Times in 83 Posts	both are neat guns ! thanks for posting follow-up photos !

05-07-2012, 04:16 PM	#13
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,154 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,306 Times in 1,097 Posts	Very nice Michael! __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

05-07-2012, 04:27 PM	#14
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	Michael, is it the angle of the photograph or are the National Match pistol's magazine releases uncheckered?

05-07-2012, 04:59 PM	#15
Michael Zeleny Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 525 Thanks: 129 Thanked 139 Times in 76 Posts	All Swiss 06/29 pistols have smooth magazine release buttons. __________________ Michael Zeleny@post.harvard.edu -- http://larvatus.livejournal.com/ -- 7576 Willow Glen Road, Los Angeles, CA 90046 -- 323.363.1860 All of old. Nothing else ever. Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better. -- Samuel Beckett