Help needed on F Guiremand holster (lot's)

Danscudas · 01-07-2014, 10:52 PM

I have not seen this exact style of holster in the other "sticky" posts on this thread. I picked up this holster on Ebay in pretty rough shape and had a shoe repair guy sew up several issues it had.

I am wondering if any of you know what this one may have been made for, commercial, police, military, etc.

Also roughly when it was made. According to another thread it was made in Berlin SW. The markings I (may) have been able to identify are as follows:

With flap lifted and above and below the strap nub you pull to lift the gun. I.Z.A. and below 1n.b.

To left of where brass button that hold down strap goes over. S.A._ _37 _ blanks like this means I cannot read it.

With flap lifted and below tool holder and backside of buttom that strap goes over. FGuiremand SB_ _ MSW1918 (This is picture 3)

Back of holster to right of right belt loop as shown in picture 2. SBS.I.R.468 and under that S.B.8468

Thank You much for any input here.

wlyon · 01-07-2014, 11:02 PM

Looks like a WW1 holster that was converted for Police use during the Weimar period. I can't see enough of the holster to be more specific. Will let our Police experts give you info on the markings. Bill

Danscudas · 01-07-2014, 11:40 PM

What picture would help you Bill, or others?

alanint · 01-08-2014, 07:00 AM

Very clear closeups of all markings.

I agree with Bill that this is a converted, not a factory police holster, (see stitching holes at the root of the closure strap and the oversized keeper loop on the holster lid. Original police holster straps are also sown vertically from closer to the middle of the front of the holster). The left hand belt loop has also been replaced with a length of leather utility strap or something similar, (see buckle hole and edge tracing on the loop, along with repair stitching).

Look in the "For sale" section for Mike Z's 1934 Police holster for comparison.

Edward Tinker · 01-08-2014, 08:51 AM

agreed, WW1 army that went into police service later.

note; taking it to the local shoe repair was not the best idea, unless he used period type thread and did the sewing by hand (Jerry Burney does it that way), because the shoe repair guy fixed the issue, but added more holes...

Ed

Danscudas · 01-08-2014, 10:05 AM

Shoe repair guy did a lot of hand sewing and when using machine went into original holes. Thread not correct and retainer strap also too wide. This holster was in rough shape with strap not even attached when I got it.

All that said the only markings my camera is good enough to do a closeup of are the markings to right of right belt loop as pictured on backside of holster shot. The rest are either small or an attempt to blot out obscures them. To help me out any more will require that the markings be interpreted as I described them with me willing to do whatever to help read them.

Thanks all for what you have shared so far!

wlyon · 01-08-2014, 11:25 AM

At least a partial answer to your questions. Your holster was originally manufactured in 1918 by F.Guiremand. After WW1 it was converted by the Weimar as a Police Holster. All the S's stand for Schutzpolizei and then the location. The B's are for Berlin. I will let the Police experts filll you in . Bill

klaus 3338 · 01-09-2014, 01:55 AM

I.Z.A. reads L.Z.A. and means Leder- Zuweisungs- Amt; this stamp can be find on 1918 dated/ made only.
The marker stamp should be F. Guiremand, BERLIN S.W.1918
SBS.I.R.468 means according an order from april 1922: Schutzpolizei Berlin (Polizeigruppe) Süd, I. Abteilung, R Revierhauptmannschaft, (Waffe/weapon) 468 and S.B.8468 is according the 1932 dated order Schutzpolizei Berlin (weapon) 468
I have no idea what S.A....could mean or I also could say I have too many ideas what it could mean, but I fear that .....
Regards
Klaus

Danscudas · 01-09-2014, 12:48 PM

Would help explain the rough condition!

Thanks Klaus and all the rest of you guys very much for your input!

01-07-2014, 10:52 PM	#1
Danscudas User Join Date: Dec 2013 Posts: 7 Thanks: 9 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Help needed on F Guiremand holster (lot's) I have not seen this exact style of holster in the other "sticky" posts on this thread. I picked up this holster on Ebay in pretty rough shape and had a shoe repair guy sew up several issues it had. I am wondering if any of you know what this one may have been made for, commercial, police, military, etc. Also roughly when it was made. According to another thread it was made in Berlin SW. The markings I (may) have been able to identify are as follows: With flap lifted and above and below the strap nub you pull to lift the gun. I.Z.A. and below 1n.b. To left of where brass button that hold down strap goes over. S.A._ _37 _ blanks like this means I cannot read it. With flap lifted and below tool holder and backside of buttom that strap goes over. FGuiremand SB_ _ MSW1918 (This is picture 3) Back of holster to right of right belt loop as shown in picture 2. SBS.I.R.468 and under that S.B.8468 Thank You much for any input here. Attached Thumbnails

01-07-2014, 11:02 PM	#2
wlyon Lifer 2X Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: May 2005 Location: Somewhere in Montana Posts: 2,619 Thanks: 3,144 Thanked 2,531 Times in 943 Posts	Looks like a WW1 holster that was converted for Police use during the Weimar period. I can't see enough of the holster to be more specific. Will let our Police experts give you info on the markings. Bill __________________ Bill Lyon

01-08-2014, 08:51 AM	#5
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,915 Thanks: 1,989 Thanked 4,506 Times in 2,080 Posts	agreed, WW1 army that went into police service later. note; taking it to the local shoe repair was not the best idea, unless he used period type thread and did the sewing by hand (Jerry Burney does it that way), because the shoe repair guy fixed the issue, but added more holes... Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

01-08-2014, 11:25 AM	#7
wlyon Lifer 2X Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: May 2005 Location: Somewhere in Montana Posts: 2,619 Thanks: 3,144 Thanked 2,531 Times in 943 Posts	At least a partial answer to your questions. Your holster was originally manufactured in 1918 by F.Guiremand. After WW1 it was converted by the Weimar as a Police Holster. All the S's stand for Schutzpolizei and then the location. The B's are for Berlin. I will let the Police experts filll you in . Bill __________________ Bill Lyon

01-07-2014, 11:40 PM	#3
Danscudas User Join Date: Dec 2013 Posts: 7 Thanks: 9 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	What picture would help you Bill, or others?

01-08-2014, 07:00 AM	#4
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	Very clear closeups of all markings. I agree with Bill that this is a converted, not a factory police holster, (see stitching holes at the root of the closure strap and the oversized keeper loop on the holster lid. Original police holster straps are also sown vertically from closer to the middle of the front of the holster). The left hand belt loop has also been replaced with a length of leather utility strap or something similar, (see buckle hole and edge tracing on the loop, along with repair stitching). Look in the "For sale" section for Mike Z's 1934 Police holster for comparison.

01-08-2014, 10:05 AM	#6
Danscudas User Join Date: Dec 2013 Posts: 7 Thanks: 9 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Shoe repair guy did a lot of hand sewing and when using machine went into original holes. Thread not correct and retainer strap also too wide. This holster was in rough shape with strap not even attached when I got it. All that said the only markings my camera is good enough to do a closeup of are the markings to right of right belt loop as pictured on backside of holster shot. The rest are either small or an attempt to blot out obscures them. To help me out any more will require that the markings be interpreted as I described them with me willing to do whatever to help read them. Thanks all for what you have shared so far!

01-09-2014, 01:55 AM	#8
klaus 3338 User Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Germany Posts: 517 Thanks: 0 Thanked 408 Times in 160 Posts	I.Z.A. reads L.Z.A. and means Leder- Zuweisungs- Amt; this stamp can be find on 1918 dated/ made only. The marker stamp should be F. Guiremand, BERLIN S.W.1918 SBS.I.R.468 means according an order from april 1922: Schutzpolizei Berlin (Polizeigruppe) Süd, I. Abteilung, R Revierhauptmannschaft, (Waffe/weapon) 468 and S.B.8468 is according the 1932 dated order Schutzpolizei Berlin (weapon) 468 I have no idea what S.A....could mean or I also could say I have too many ideas what it could mean, but I fear that ..... Regards Klaus

01-09-2014, 12:48 PM	#9
Danscudas User Join Date: Dec 2013 Posts: 7 Thanks: 9 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Would help explain the rough condition! Thanks Klaus and all the rest of you guys very much for your input!