Fate of 1900 Test Lugers

[drbuster]

The long (now ended) discussion between Eric, Albert, Ron and others has stimulated my interest in what happened to all the test lugers. Albert states unequivically that "pristine" 1900 test lugers have to be restored because they received hard wear by use in the field. It is accepted that 1000 of these guns were originally sent for testing but out of range lugers bearing features of the 1900 test have been shown to exist. A large number of test lugers were sold off to Bannerman's after they failed to win the coveted US contract. The subject of the holsters also has come up, some stating that there had to be initials of the accepting ordnance officer on the outside flap. Then it was suggested that not all the holsters were initialed, especially those that went to military outposts such as the Prisidios of San Francisco and Monterey. Thus, there may well have been more than 1000 AE lugers that bear test characteristics. Not only that, but since we were not at war in 1900, it is possible that a number of these lugers could have came through in good condition. I just don't think one can say that to be a "real" test luger, it has to be worn. I have to believe that as, in addition to Eric's test luger, I have seen close up and in good light, two others in near 98% condition.

[Lugerdoc]

Doc, According to Mike Reese's book on the subject, Springfield Arsenal, The Presidio and the Gunnery School in Montery each received 25 lugers for testing. I suspect that these lugers remained in better condition that the 5 each, sent to each Calvery unit for use in the field and to check parts interchangability. I'm always suspecious when I see one of these in matching minty condition, as I know that many have been restored. Years ago when I lived in the Bay Area, I inquired at the Presidio Museum, if they had any records of these lugers, without results. You may want to follow up with Montery, but they will probably tell you that all of the records were send to the National Archives (good branch in San Bruno), which Mike Reese spent many hours researching. L Doc

[cirelaw]

All you have to do is ask Gerry Burney, of "holster Repair" He can give you an idea how many test holster passed through his hand and the different varieties, Just look in the HL luger dowloads in its 'luger accessories' dowload, featuring a test holster with leather straps extending, In fact my luger set with holster in featureD, on Marios' Italian Luger Artillerie site. Be patient we will find you one, You or any of our member, can send me an email Ipromise you wont be disappointed, 'SNOOKEM13@AOL.COM' GOD BLESS can somone insert a entry in his site,

[drbuster]

Thanks for your reply Tom. I agree that one must be very suspicious about good condition test eagles, and with that said, number one, I know they exist, and number two, I make sure that Mike Krause has a good look at them!

[drbuster]

Just an afterthought: the test eagle on the cover of Reese's book looks to be in pretty good shape!

[cirelaw]

Do we have any idea, how many we sold through the bannermam catalog and how many wound up a salesman samples, Is there any record how many were retured to their store, Aberchrombie & finch had to sell some to its favorite customers

[cirelaw]

I was very lucky to have a long time relationship, with Ralh Shadduck, who sold me both my Test Luger #6786, the U.S. test Holster and diplay, the same one being sold by Simpon, for a couple of thousand dollars, I know a few must still exist, He wouldnt sell me his last!

[drbuster]

Eric, I'm not so sure about that. Ralph is a businessman first, a collector second, not the other way around!

[cirelaw]

And He should be, a Businessman with a heart! And He also sold me one of his 9mm,Luger Carbine and Ill send you a closeup that I hope your or Ed will post one of the finest I ever seen,

[Imperial Arms]

Doc, I would like to correct a sentence in your post above where you state "Albert states unequivically that "pristine" 1900 test lugers have to be restored because they received hard wear by use in the field...". According to the number of surviving US Test Lugers (let's say 200-300 pieces, but refer to Ron's table), the number of 'pristine' US Test Lugers probably accounts today for 2-3 pistols which are in 'closet' collections, and I do not even have one. Let me say that I consider 'pristine' condition about 98%, and I reckon that the average condition of a surviving US Test Luger is about 85% condition (or less).

I would like you to imagine this story, and then you tell me afterwards what are the chances of a US Test Luger maintaining 98%+ condition. About 106 years ago, a bunch of Lugers were shipped to the US and upon arrival they were delivered to various units around the country. These officers made sure that they were handled very carefully during the trails and even went as far as wiping down the pistols with rags after (excessive) use so there would be no chance of corrosion. To prevent wear on the finish (including the high edges and around the muzzle), they limited the use of inserting the pistols into a holster. When they decided that US Army was not going to adopt the Luger, they made sure to wipe down thoroughly each pistol before they packed them away in pistol pouches which were then placed in crates/boxes for storage for the next 6-7 years. When they decided to sell the quantity of pistols to Bannerman, they told the dealer that these pistols were 'curios & relics'. When each pistol was sold, the new owner took the same measures to perserve the pistol because he wanted to keep the pistol as new as possible.

Now, if you believe this comic story, I would suggest you drop your Luger hobby and look for another area of collecting. In conclusion, when you examine a Luger (especially a test Luger or a military Luger) that is to good to believe, there is a strong chance that it could be restored. As I repeat a thousand times to my friends, look for patina and consistency of the finish (including machine marks) on any pre-war pistol - these details MUST exist if you want to sleep with satisfaction during the night.

For example, I had the privilage in 1998 to examine a M1900 Presentation Luger in a case that was given to Prince Franz Joseph of Austria before he became king. That Luger I considered as pristine, however, I did notice signs that the pistol had been handled and fired - I even saw patina on the crown of the muzzle caused by the corrosive gun powder used in the early 1900's. Everything on the pistol, including the case, had consistency across the board. If you can grasp what I am trying to explain, you will learn well and fast as well as limit your financial loses in your hobby/investment. If a collector wants to buy a restored pistol, that is his personal choice and decision, but the biggest disappointment occurs when he expects to buy a genuine piece which turns out to be wrong. Maybe some wealthy collectors do not give a damn because they believe that money is power, but it can come back and bite them in the ass when they discover the truth.

Albert

[cirelaw]

Like any other possession, Its my business from where or who it came from, that none of your business, unless I so decide. Do you post where your rather rugged test gun and holster came from, enjoy what you have and dont belittle someone or some luger, unless your opinion is sought, Your older and wiser, 'Thou shalt not covett, thy neighbors' Luger'

[cirelaw]

It doesn't matter, from where I came. It matter only where I am and where I will be.'Eric Bruning, BA, Juris Doctor, and that doesnt matter, as Man worth isn't measured by the value of his Luger. but by the quality,

[cirelaw]

If mine and the other member were restored, who and how did they restore back to its present condition? What process is employed and what tell tail signs are left behind.

[Imperial Arms]

Eric,

My post above was a reply to Doc's (drbuster) starting post, and it has no reference to your US Test Luger. If you interprete my post as an attack on your Luger, that is your problem. If you can read properly, it gives a 'reverse' explanation (with humour) regarding how the normal handling and elements would have affected the condition of any Luger, expecially a US Test Luger which is over 100 years old.

Originally posted by cirelaw
Like any other possession, Its my business from where or who it came from, that none of your business, unless I so decide. Do you post where your rather rugged test gun and holster came from, enjoy what you have and dont belittle someone or some luger, unless your opinion is sought, Your older and wiser, 'Thou shalt not covett, thy neighbors' Luger'

If you want to get aggresive with me in public, I shall tear you a new.... I suggest that you calm down and take your remarks and religious guotes elsewhere. Some collectors are willing to learn by receiving logical and intelligent information, and others such as yourself, want to dream. More power to you!

Albert

[drbuster]

Sorry for the delay in answering your post, Albert. I absolutely agree with what you have said. With that being said how do you go about examining a luger to convince yourself whether it has been restored or not? We have had several posts on the Forum visiting this issue. I have my own ways but I also make certain that I show it to several of my collecting collegues including Mike Krause, who I trust and am lucky to live near.

[cirelaw]

Sorry Albert, We can all leaarn from each other, and have some fun without perceived attacks, Thank you all!

[erndog105]

I understand that there is a Luger in the West Point Museum. Did West Point get any test lugers? Has anyone seen the luger at West Point and can give a description of it. My God Son will be entering West Point this year and I have asked him to try and find out condition and serial number for me.

[cirelaw]

We have the privalege to recal History, on such an Important subjet, Let us realize that words are alike bullets, once released from silos of anger, they can no longer be recalled or explained, for the pull of one finger started one war, while the push of another, luckily ended another, eric

[cirelaw]

Congradulations, How proud you must be, Make sure to make the Army-Navy game!Yea Kick ask!

[Ron Wood]

erndog105,

Ten Test Lugers were shipped from Springfield Armory to West Point as part of the trials. Serial number 7014 is in the West Point Museum, I do not know the condition. Congratulations to your God Son on being accepted into West Point. I wish him well.