C-96 help with unit marking

policeluger · 09-26-2005, 10:16 AM

C-96 in the 193xxx range front grip straped marked "S.L.Po1.1013", can anyone ID this, Ron a new one for you to paly with....thanks for the help

Ron Smith · 09-26-2005, 10:48 AM

Hey Howard, Where are you digging these up? Here's my guess.

S=Schutzpolizei

L= LÃ?Â¼neburg

Po1=Polizeireviere (police station #1)

weapon # 1013

Don may have a different (no doubt correct) translation, but this is my
WAG at it.

I'm basing this on the assumpton that C96s were issued early in the formation of post war police units. And so the markings were not standardized yet.

Ron

Don M · 09-26-2005, 11:53 AM

Howard,

So I don't disappoint Ron, my alternate interpretation is "SÃ?Â¤chsische (Saxon) Landespolizei." This is consistent with Klaus Schad's interpretation of this mark on Lugers and I have seen where C96s were used by various police units in the early 1920s.

I would be very interested in knowing the full serial number of this gun and seeing a photo of the unit mark. This mark may be very helpful in understanding other S.L.Pol. marks, many of which were were x'd out and replaced with S.P./X., where "X." represents one of four Saxon governmental districts: Dresden (D.), Leipzig (L.), Chemnitz (C.) or Zwikau (Zw.).

Ron Smith · 09-26-2005, 12:05 PM

Hi Don,

What does the Po1 stand for?

And BTW you have cut me to the quick. Now I'll have to go through life with a cut quick.

Schupo · 09-26-2005, 12:27 PM

Gentlemen,

An interesting marking. I too would like to see a photo of the marking. I suspect it reads: "S.L.Pol.1013" but the spacing and size of the font are important to decyphering these markings.

Ron,

I don't believe this is a Prussian Police marking. It does not comply with either known set of published police marking regulations and the LÃ?Â¼neburg designation was changed from the 1922 stamping instructions to the 1932 instructions.

Don,

I agree with you that this may well be a marking for the Saxon Landespolizei. The standard Saxon Police marking is as you have described. Even though there are no known Saxon Pol marking instructions, surviving examples of Saxon Police weapons survive to show the manner in which they were marked. Here is a page from my book, "Seitengewehr: History of the German Bayonet 1919-1945" that shows the usual Saxon Police markings. This marking is for the Leipzig Polizei but shows the proper style. This particular Seitengewehr was only worn by the Saxon Polizei and cannot be confused with sidearms from other states, such as Prussia. The text explains the sizes of the various die stamps used. These exact same markings will be found on pistols.

I hope this is helpful.

George

Don M · 09-26-2005, 01:25 PM

Ron,

Sorry about the cut quick but be confident it will heal with time.

As George says, the mark is probably "Pol." and not "Po1."

Ron Smith · 09-26-2005, 02:48 PM

I guess I'll just leave the Po-Leece stuff to you guys, and stick with the military marks.

I still think that the P.A.L. II marking is military, until I am proven incorrect.

Ron

policeluger · 09-26-2005, 03:34 PM

I will get pictures soon, and I should have put a note to my first tread here, it is "S.P.Po1.1013"....the "L" in question is a "1" the same size/font a the 1's in the weapon number.....thanks a lot guys

Don M · 09-26-2005, 05:38 PM

Howard,

Now I'm confused. Is it "S.L." as in your original post or "S.P." as in the latest?

Here's an example of the Saxon Landespolizei marks (the one x'd out). Admittedly, the lower-case "l" looks a lot like a "1" but note that the serif at the top of the 1 is sloped and the one on the l is horizontal.

policeluger · 09-26-2005, 07:28 PM

I'm sorry it is "S.L.".....and I do have in my collection one as posted above...I'll get a picture in a bit....

policeluger · 09-26-2005, 10:13 PM

Here is the grip marking....tell me what you think about 'em

Don M · 09-26-2005, 11:00 PM

Howard,

I stand by my earlier ID as SÃ?Â¤chsische Landes Polizei (Saxon State Police). I can see the difference between the top of the "l" and the tops of the "1"s.

This will be a great addition to my database. I suspect that the reason that this mark was not x'd out and replaced with S.P.L. was that it was retired from service before that change was made. Thanks very much for providing this information.

Do you know when this C96 was manufactured?

George,

Thanks to you too for the information on Leipzig marked bayonet. Is there any way to date the manufacture of that bayonet, at least as "no earlier than"? This might help narrow down the date that the S.P.L. marks began to be used.

Schupo · 09-26-2005, 11:43 PM

Howard,

I agree with Don that this is a Saxon Landespolizei marking. A very nice pistol and marking BTW. These markings are confusing because of the change in style and the fact that published Saxon Pol regulations are not available.

Don,

Unfortunately there is no way to date the markings on these Saxon Seitengewehre. They wore them from Imperial times through the time of the Weimar Republic and even into the early NS Zeit. The markings remained (just like the Prussian Pol markings) so it is not really possible to date them to a specific time frame. We can only be sure they are generally from the time of the Weimar Republic and that they were no longer in general use after 1937.

George

Don M · 09-27-2005, 11:22 AM

Howard, et al.,

I misspoke when I said that the S.L.Pol. marks were replaced by those of four of the Saxon governmental districts. The S.L.Pol. marks in my database that were superceded were all replaced by S.P./L. marks. Apparently, all these weapons went to the Leipzig district.

George,

Shucks!

policeluger · 09-27-2005, 11:47 AM

Thanks to all.....I also have as Don has pictured above, P08, grip crossout # is 3927...and S.P./L. matching mag is #1, mag is also HS arrow extrudes blue body....Don the C96 SN# is193930......and George, one way or another in will be in KC by early April at best, take me to a real down home BBQ and I'll buy.....

09-26-2005, 10:48 AM	#2
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	Hey Howard, Where are you digging these up? Here's my guess. S=Schutzpolizei L= LÃ?Â¼neburg Po1=Polizeireviere (police station #1) weapon # 1013 Don may have a different (no doubt correct) translation, but this is my WAG at it. I'm basing this on the assumpton that C96s were issued early in the formation of post war police units. And so the markings were not standardized yet. Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

09-26-2005, 11:53 AM	#3
Don M Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 1,429 Thanks: 67 Thanked 292 Times in 191 Posts	Howard, So I don't disappoint Ron, my alternate interpretation is "SÃ?Â¤chsische (Saxon) Landespolizei." This is consistent with Klaus Schad's interpretation of this mark on Lugers and I have seen where C96s were used by various police units in the early 1920s. I would be very interested in knowing the full serial number of this gun and seeing a photo of the unit mark. This mark may be very helpful in understanding other S.L.Pol. marks, many of which were were x'd out and replaced with S.P./X., where "X." represents one of four Saxon governmental districts: Dresden (D.), Leipzig (L.), Chemnitz (C.) or Zwikau (Zw.). __________________ Regards, Don donmaus1@aol.com Author of History Writ in Steel: German Police Markings 1900-1936 http://www.historywritinsteel.com

09-26-2005, 12:05 PM	#4
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	Hi Don, What does the Po1 stand for? And BTW you have cut me to the quick. Now I'll have to go through life with a cut quick. __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

09-26-2005, 12:27 PM	#5
Schupo User Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Kansas City Metro Posts: 206 Thanks: 1 Thanked 102 Times in 47 Posts	Gentlemen, An interesting marking. I too would like to see a photo of the marking. I suspect it reads: "S.L.Pol.1013" but the spacing and size of the font are important to decyphering these markings. Ron, I don't believe this is a Prussian Police marking. It does not comply with either known set of published police marking regulations and the LÃ?Â¼neburg designation was changed from the 1922 stamping instructions to the 1932 instructions. Don, I agree with you that this may well be a marking for the Saxon Landespolizei. The standard Saxon Police marking is as you have described. Even though there are no known Saxon Pol marking instructions, surviving examples of Saxon Police weapons survive to show the manner in which they were marked. Here is a page from my book, "Seitengewehr: History of the German Bayonet 1919-1945" that shows the usual Saxon Police markings. This marking is for the Leipzig Polizei but shows the proper style. This particular Seitengewehr was only worn by the Saxon Polizei and cannot be confused with sidearms from other states, such as Prussia. The text explains the sizes of the various die stamps used. These exact same markings will be found on pistols. I hope this is helpful. George Attached Thumbnails __________________ "You can't please everyone, so you have got to please yourself." Ricky Nelson

09-26-2005, 01:25 PM	#6
Don M Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 1,429 Thanks: 67 Thanked 292 Times in 191 Posts	Ron, Sorry about the cut quick but be confident it will heal with time. As George says, the mark is probably "Pol." and not "Po1." __________________ Regards, Don donmaus1@aol.com Author of History Writ in Steel: German Police Markings 1900-1936 http://www.historywritinsteel.com

09-26-2005, 10:16 AM	#1
policeluger RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Ca. Posts: 2,141 Thanks: 8 Thanked 89 Times in 54 Posts	C-96 help with unit marking C-96 in the 193xxx range front grip straped marked "S.L.Po1.1013", can anyone ID this, Ron a new one for you to paly with....thanks for the help

09-26-2005, 02:48 PM	#7
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	I guess I'll just leave the Po-Leece stuff to you guys, and stick with the military marks. I still think that the P.A.L. II marking is military, until I am proven incorrect. Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

09-26-2005, 03:34 PM	#8
policeluger RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Ca. Posts: 2,141 Thanks: 8 Thanked 89 Times in 54 Posts	I will get pictures soon, and I should have put a note to my first tread here, it is "S.P.Po1.1013"....the "L" in question is a "1" the same size/font a the 1's in the weapon number.....thanks a lot guys

09-26-2005, 05:38 PM	#9
Don M Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 1,429 Thanks: 67 Thanked 292 Times in 191 Posts	Howard, Now I'm confused. Is it "S.L." as in your original post or "S.P." as in the latest? Here's an example of the Saxon Landespolizei marks (the one x'd out). Admittedly, the lower-case "l" looks a lot like a "1" but note that the serif at the top of the 1 is sloped and the one on the l is horizontal. __________________ Regards, Don donmaus1@aol.com Author of History Writ in Steel: German Police Markings 1900-1936 http://www.historywritinsteel.com

09-26-2005, 07:28 PM	#10
policeluger RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Ca. Posts: 2,141 Thanks: 8 Thanked 89 Times in 54 Posts	I'm sorry it is "S.L.".....and I do have in my collection one as posted above...I'll get a picture in a bit....

09-26-2005, 10:13 PM	#11
policeluger RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Ca. Posts: 2,141 Thanks: 8 Thanked 89 Times in 54 Posts	Here is the grip marking....tell me what you think about 'em

09-26-2005, 11:00 PM	#12
Don M Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 1,429 Thanks: 67 Thanked 292 Times in 191 Posts	Howard, I stand by my earlier ID as SÃ?Â¤chsische Landes Polizei (Saxon State Police). I can see the difference between the top of the "l" and the tops of the "1"s. This will be a great addition to my database. I suspect that the reason that this mark was not x'd out and replaced with S.P.L. was that it was retired from service before that change was made. Thanks very much for providing this information. Do you know when this C96 was manufactured? George, Thanks to you too for the information on Leipzig marked bayonet. Is there any way to date the manufacture of that bayonet, at least as "no earlier than"? This might help narrow down the date that the S.P.L. marks began to be used. __________________ Regards, Don donmaus1@aol.com Author of History Writ in Steel: German Police Markings 1900-1936 http://www.historywritinsteel.com

09-26-2005, 11:43 PM	#13
Schupo User Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Kansas City Metro Posts: 206 Thanks: 1 Thanked 102 Times in 47 Posts	Howard, I agree with Don that this is a Saxon Landespolizei marking. A very nice pistol and marking BTW. These markings are confusing because of the change in style and the fact that published Saxon Pol regulations are not available. Don, Unfortunately there is no way to date the markings on these Saxon Seitengewehre. They wore them from Imperial times through the time of the Weimar Republic and even into the early NS Zeit. The markings remained (just like the Prussian Pol markings) so it is not really possible to date them to a specific time frame. We can only be sure they are generally from the time of the Weimar Republic and that they were no longer in general use after 1937. George __________________ "You can't please everyone, so you have got to please yourself." Ricky Nelson

09-27-2005, 11:22 AM	#14
Don M Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 1,429 Thanks: 67 Thanked 292 Times in 191 Posts	Howard, et al., I misspoke when I said that the S.L.Pol. marks were replaced by those of four of the Saxon governmental districts. The S.L.Pol. marks in my database that were superceded were all replaced by S.P./L. marks. Apparently, all these weapons went to the Leipzig district. George, Shucks! __________________ Regards, Don donmaus1@aol.com Author of History Writ in Steel: German Police Markings 1900-1936 http://www.historywritinsteel.com

09-27-2005, 11:47 AM	#15
policeluger RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Ca. Posts: 2,141 Thanks: 8 Thanked 89 Times in 54 Posts	Thanks to all.....I also have as Don has pictured above, P08, grip crossout # is 3927...and S.P./L. matching mag is #1, mag is also HS arrow extrudes blue body....Don the C96 SN# is193930......and George, one way or another in will be in KC by early April at best, take me to a real down home BBQ and I'll buy.....