Jammed Shell

[Sieger]

mrerick,

"(Luger, BTW, was renown for stealing inventions from others - there is original documentation about his behavior when stealing Mauser's 3 lug rifle bolt action model from Oberndorf and patenting it in Berlin in his own name)..."

Please provide a copy of or quote from the original documentation as mentioned above.

Thanks!


Sieger

[Sharpsdressed Man]

Is there a spring KIT available that can be purchased that will update Lugers and relieve a lot of extraction/ejections problems, or prevent them in the future?

[Vlim]

Sieger: much is explained in our book on Paul Mauser.

Paperwork from the court case between Mauser and Luger survived, as well as many other documents.

Remington ammo test reports from the 1970s are also available.

[Doubs]

Originally Posted by Sharpsdressed Man

Is there a spring KIT available that can be purchased that will update Lugers and relieve a lot of extraction/ejections problems, or prevent them in the future?

Try Wolff springs. Go to Service Pak I

https://www.gunsprings.com/LUGER/cID1/mID38/dID162

Wolff makes excellent springs. Service Pak I contains all you need to replace the coil springs. The ejector, however, is a different matter. For that - ONLY if yours is broken - you'll need to contact LugerDoc or someone else who sells ejectors.

[Sharpsdressed Man]

Thanks. Didn't know if Wolff was the only one, or the best.

[meadowlark]

Went to the range today to try out some Winchester 9mm 115gr ammo to see if that would correct my jammed shell problem. The good news is I only had 1 out of 50-60 partially jam and that 1 was easy to clear.The bad news was my shooting was all over the place. I think just changing from Remington to Winchester ammo was what all I needed to do to fix this problem. Thanks to everyone who suggested this fix. I'm now going to retire this collectable P08 from shooting and look around for a P08 "shooter".

[DonVoigt]

"I think just changing from Remington to Winchester ammo was what all I needed to do to fix this problem. Thanks to everyone who suggested this fix."

Not a surprise to many of us.

Keep your eye on the forum trader for a "shooter".

[kpf]

The luger P08 is wery sensitive on the ammo. I checked several types of ammo with the original German bullet shape and found Winchester 115 gr white box to be near perfect match.
And they works perfect.

Regards

Kai

[DonVoigt]

Originally Posted by kpf

The luger P08 is wery sensitive on the ammo. I checked several types of ammo with the original German bullet shape and found Winchester 115 gr white box to be near perfect match.
And they works perfect.

Regards

Kai

But not in every luger!

[mrerick]

have you removed the extractor (it's an easy job, just drift out the pin - carefully holding it in place so that you don't lose the extractor spring)? Also, checked the spring well for dirt and cleaned it in that area?

I can't comment on Remington 9mm UMC ammo because I don't use it, but in addition to any quality concerns, it might just be the powder that they use and it's burn rate.

Manufacturers will use their own group's components when making ammunition. For example, it's very likely that Winchester White Box 9mm ammo is loaded with their W231 powder.

While Barnes (bullets) is part of the Remington Outdoor Company (renamed from the Cerberus Capital Management owned Freedom Group conglomerate during bankruptcy proceedings a few years ago) but I don't see one of the powder manufacturers is in the group. It's very possible that they source powder from multiple places, but hard to know for sure. Their annual report confirms that they source gunpowder from a number of companies.

[mrerick]

Originally Posted by Sieger

mrerick,

"(Luger, BTW, was renown for stealing inventions from others - there is original documentation about his behavior when stealing Mauser's 3 lug rifle bolt action model from Oberndorf and patenting it in Berlin in his own name)..."

Please provide a copy of or quote from the original documentation as mentioned above.

Thanks!


Sieger

Hi, the documents that confirm this are in the book Gerben and Mauro published recently, and that I edited.

The original documents from the legal cases are part of the archive. It took decades to finally adjudicate the case.

http://www.paul-mauser-archive.com/b...nformation.htm

The story starts in 1891 when Ludwig Loewe (Via Oliven Kosgarten) introduces Luger to Mauser after hiring Luger away from Mannlicher. The Mauser book discusses this starting on page 109.

Luger traveled to Oberndorf where he spent time observing activities in the Mauser research and development office. Luger eventually returned to Loewe in Berlin.

A batch of experimental rifles were sent by Mauser to Berlin in 1894 for evaluation by US Representatives, and they had a modification which included the 3 lug bolt (after an 1880 design that Fidel Feederle remembered working with at Mauser).

Luger subsequently observed the rifles in Berlin and applied for and received a Utility Patent on the 3 lug bolt. This was the subject of an observed argument between Luger and Feederle. Gebrauchsmuster 40,134.

Luger subsequently sued Mauser for royalties on Mauser's original idea, and the lawsuits continued for years, including 1896 testimony by Feederle in court.

Mauser lost that lawsuit on a technicality relating to the 1891 patent law in Germany. This involved the US representatives removing the sample rifles with the design from Germany to the USA. The M1903 US Rifle was subsequently based on these designs, an infringement that Mauser sued the US government over. The 1896 case was the first time Mauser claimed that Luger had observed the design and patented it in his own name. This was claimed in court, but could not be proven in spite of Feederle's testimony.

German patent 82394 was issued to Luger in 1894 for the bolt design.

Loewe eventually stepped in to settle the dispute in 1899, and royalties continued to be paid by Mauser to Luger (a receipt from 1902 remains in the archive).

Loewe eventually fired Luger from DWM in 1919 over other patent related litigation.

Many years later, Mauser (the company, as Mauser himself died in 1914) eventually collected his royalties for the design from the US Government.

I don't have the rights to reproduce the book or the documents from the archive, so cannot post them.

Marc

[Doubs]

mrerick, thank you for the information. Very interesting.

I wasn't aware of the Mauser-Luger legal case but was aware that Mauser sued the U.S. Government for infringement of patents WRT the 1903 Springfield. IIRC, Mauser was awarded one million dollars which was a huge sum in those days.

[Sergio Natali]

Somewhere I read that at the beginning Lugers were supposed to shoot 124gr fmj bullet at 1050/fps but just before WWI loads were changed to 115gr fmj at 1150fps.
Now, coming to the point, I don't have recent experience with shooting Lugers at the range but I used to keep my reloads on the mildish side as I seem to remember that Lugers don't like hot ammo very much.
If your pistol is "collector quality" there is always the chance of breaking something that cannot be easily replaced, so stay away from heavy loads.

[Sieger]

[QUOTE=Sergio Natali;327269]... but just before WWI loads were changed to 115gr fmj at 1150fps.
[QUOTE]

Sergio,

The German army increased the 9mm Parabellum, 123 grain, load to 1,076 fps and held it there through the DDR period.

I have all of the original German language military manuals for the period as absolute proof.

Shoot hotter loads at your own risk.


Respectfully,

Sieger

[K.Wilhelm]

All of the great advice my learned friends have given here did not include one thing I find to be of great assistance to improving functioning in Lugers; that is liberal application of a good quality lube. Bill

[Rick W.]

I have always heard that the primary function of the extractor on a Luger is to grab the rim of the case, and hold it against the breechblock face until the ejector forciblby removes it.

I have noted over the years some things about the extractor and its spring in problematic pistols. I think the more common might be the spring is too short or too weak, to allow the holding of the case in place. Take an empty case, insert it into the loose breechblock train, it should kinda snap into place, with a feeling of tension holding the case in place. If the case is loose or falls out, this will usually cause an unintended movement early in the fired circle, usually falls into the works and jams up. I believe that the ejector likes some resistance to its upcoming force to the fired case.

Likewise I have seen broken extractors, when a new extractor is fitted, it is found that the compression of the spring in its cavity by the extractor going over the case rim, does not allow for some tolerance to allow said exactor to move over the rim without extractor springing. some people poo-poo that check, but with today's parts, might wanna check that capability of movement. Tis not a 1900.

Finally the ejector, a marvelous piece of steel it is. Broken nose, ill fitted in the cavity(loose) will not give the leverage needed to kick the case away from the breechblock face in the intended fashion

A few years back Huntingtons(RCBS) had extractor molds for casting parts. Never knew all of the ins/outs of the fab of the smaller parts, just a clue perhaps.